"You're a poo-poo head!"..."No, you're a poo-poo head" - Sticky for handbag swinging

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
@DaManBugs

As as fascinating as your version of history is, it really belongs here.


It was a pure ego exercise by your man Mountbatten. It was never sanctioned by any authority and all the planning was done "in secret" with Mountbatten pulling all the strings and playing his cards (very) close to his chest. It was also a total fiasco that needlessly cost many lives.

I would be very interested to hear how Mountbatten planned Dieppe all on his own without any authority and in secret..........





............no really, I would.
 

NSP

LE
@DaManBugs

As as fascinating as your version of history is, it really belongs here.


It was a pure ego exercise by your man Mountbatten. It was never sanctioned by any authority and all the planning was done "in secret" with Mountbatten pulling all the strings and playing his cards (very) close to his chest. It was also a total fiasco that needlessly cost many lives.

I would be very interested to hear how Mountbatten planned Dieppe all on his own without any authority and in secret..........





............no really, I would.
Hang on - aren't most battle plans made "in secret...?" Y'know - so the enemy doesn't find out about them and all that...
 
Hang on - aren't most battle plans made "in secret...?" Y'know - so the enemy doesn't find out about them and all that...
True. But they are not normally kept secret from the planners!
 
Hang on - aren't most battle plans made "in secret...?" Y'know - so the enemy doesn't find out about them and all that...
Well yes, strictly speaking.

Unless of course you mean this.

 

NSP

LE
Well yes, strictly speaking.

Unless of course you mean this.

I said "most," precisely to allow the wriggle room for those plans intended to fall into the "wrong" hands as part of a massive maskirovka.

However, presumably the planning for those plans would itself also be secret.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
You'd be better off reading this Amazon product than taking any notice of the Pigeon molester... even the oxygen of publicity as a complete fucktard loon is more than he deserves.
 
I think we forget. Most soldiers get to write their own itinerary, and if your army cervix was as illustrious as Bugsy's, you'd know this.

After all, was he not one of the few who found himself in Baghdad during Op Granby?
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Well, that's pikeyair for you, promise you Kuwait, you end up in Baghdad with a bus ticket to your intended destination....
 
@DaManBugs

As as fascinating as your version of history is, it really belongs here.


It was a pure ego exercise by your man Mountbatten. It was never sanctioned by any authority and all the planning was done "in secret" with Mountbatten pulling all the strings and playing his cards (very) close to his chest. It was also a total fiasco that needlessly cost many lives.

I would be very interested to hear how Mountbatten planned Dieppe all on his own without any authority and in secret..........





............no really, I would.
To be honest this is possibly one of those stopped clock occasions - theres a lot of evidence that Mountbatten (who dont forget had a lot of authourity and autonomy to launch independent raids as the ommander of combined ops) circumvented Montys HQ amongst others in order to pull off a (much) larger than sanctioned raid
 
To be honest this is possibly one of those stopped clock occasions - theres a lot of evidence that Mountbatten (who dont forget had a lot of authourity and autonomy to launch independent raids as the ommander of combined ops) circumvented Montys HQ amongst others in order to pull off a (much) larger than sanctioned raid
That's not how I read it. Monty was in North Africa by the time of Dieppe but he had already sanctioned the raid. General McNaughton the Canadian army chief couldn't get his troops into action fast enough. General Brooke the then Chief of Imperial General staff also gave his approval and Churchill himself sanctioned the raid based on the opinions of those mentioned plus others including Mountbatten.
As usual with these things it was a combination of things which led to the failure of Dieppe. Not least that the Germans were pretty sure Dieppe was a target and remained on high alert throughout the summer of '42.
I have no doubt that Mountbatten was vociferous in his support of the raid but he can't be held responsible for all the failures. He did not "circumvent Monty's HQ" as Monty was in N Africa. His replacement was the Commanding Officer of the Second Canadian Division, General Harry Crerar, with Major-General John Hamilton Roberts the actual army commander. After the war of course Churchill denied all responsibilty and the blame was shifted about eventually falling on Mountbatten (such is politics).

 
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That's not how I read it. Monty was in North Africa by the time of Dieppe but he had already sanctioned the raid. General McNaughton the Canadian army chief couldn't get his troops into action fast enough. General Brooke the then Chief of Imperial General staff also gave his approval and Churchill himself sanctioned the raid based on the opinions of those mentioned plus others including Mountbatten.

Wheras my understanding is that whilst an operation was sanctioned - but not the that which went ahead

As usual with these things it was a combination of things which led to the failure of Dieppe. Not least the the Germans were pretty sure Dieppe was a target and remained on high alert throughout the summer of '42.

See my previous viz rutter being cancelled and then deliberatly compromised - which also feeds into my point about jubilee not being sanctioned -
I also refer back to the fact he did not consult with higher intelligence - hence running into the convoy - either he didnt do so to retain control or he simply failed to do so - neither portrays him in the best light.


I have no doubt that Mountbatten was vociferous in his support of the raid but he can't be held responsible for all the failures.

To be fair - I never said he was - only for the intelligence failures and lack of support - the technical knowhow would have meant the same approach regardless of who was in charge

Rutter may have faired better under Monty - although he ultimatly shelved it - but only because he would have called down a great deal more firepower

He did not "circumvent Monty's HQ" as Monty was in N Africa.
Only just he would have been in UK for most of the planning - however consider montys HQ as poor shorthand for Commander British forces in UK

His replacement was the Commanding Officer of the Second Canadian Division, General Harry Crerar, with Major-General John Hamilton Roberts the actual army commander. After the war of course Churchill denied all responsibilty and the blame was shifted about eventually falling on Mountbatten (such is politics).
Wheras again ive seen others accounts that winston was unaware and Furious he took responsibility at the time - feeling he had no choice.

We will probably have to agree to disagree given the variety of contradictory sources and claims.

It has to be said though Mountbattens subsequent shunting off to India and a very much Admin post (where i feel he excelled) was probably one of the better decisions
 
Wheras again ive seen others accounts that winston was unaware and Furious he took responsibility at the time - feeling he had no choice.
Churchill was fully aware of the operation and he sanctioned it.


On 4 June Churchill held a conference on the operation, with General Sir Alan Brooke, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Mountbatten and Hughes-Hallett. Churchill had concerns. “He asked Mountbatten whether he could ‘guarantee success’ to which Mountbatten replied that he could not.” But Hughes-Hallett, who had trained with the Canadian troops, assured Churchill that they would “fight like hell.”4 Brooke lent his support, and Churchill gave his approval.

Churchill was not above a little rewriting of history after the war. He was after all a politician!
 
Anyway this is the pooh pooh thread. The original point I was making is that once again @DaManBugs has quoted from his Big Book of History Bollocks (ISBN unavailable) So as not to derail a serious thread, I have asked him to come on here and explain his post. He won't of course because
a) he can't, and
b) he is incapable of coherent argument and will end up on ROP's again.
 
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That's not how I read it. Monty was in North Africa by the time of Dieppe but he had already sanctioned the raid. General McNaughton the Canadian army chief couldn't get his troops into action fast enough. General Brooke the then Chief of Imperial General staff also gave his approval and Churchill himself sanctioned the raid based on the opinions of those mentioned plus others including Mountbatten.
As usual with these things it was a combination of things which led to the failure of Dieppe. Not least that the Germans were pretty sure Dieppe was a target and remained on high alert throughout the summer of '42.
I have no doubt that Mountbatten was vociferous in his support of the raid but he can't be held responsible for all the failures. He did not "circumvent Monty's HQ" as Monty was in N Africa. His replacement was the Commanding Officer of the Second Canadian Division, General Harry Crerar, with Major-General John Hamilton Roberts the actual army commander. After the war of course Churchill denied all responsibilty and the blame was shifted about eventually falling on Mountbatten (such is politics).

As I read it we also learned a lot of lessons for further on.
 

goodoldboy

MIA
Book Reviewer
As I read it we also learned a lot of lessons for further on.
I've read the comments here about Dieppe with interest but cannot see how Mountbatten could have orchestrated such a large operation more or less on his own and with plenty of strings being pulled and old favours being called in. Four or five Commandoes going in quietly, doing some general reconnaissance and then being exfiltrated with stealth, I could believe. As it was, there was a huge amount of resources used and I just find it hard to comprehend that this operation would be put together in some of the ways suggested. Mountbatten had a reputation of going in head first without a thought about the reaction, but on this occasion? Doubt it...
 

Tyk

LE
I've read the comments here about Dieppe with interest but cannot see how Mountbatten could have orchestrated such a large operation more or less on his own and with plenty of strings being pulled and old favours being called in. Four or five Commandoes going in quietly, doing some general reconnaissance and then being exfiltrated with stealth, I could believe. As it was, there was a huge amount of resources used and I just find it hard to comprehend that this operation would be put together in some of the ways suggested.

Fair points, while he had command of resources aplenty, it seems improbable that he acted even partially alone, let alone largely.
 

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