Your Favourite Exceptional Olympians.

******* hell, he just cant help himself can he, even when some people misguidedly defend him (Or white knight him in Toasties case) he still has to tell lies.
I have to say, on the secret thread about him that Bugsy can't see, I suggested that if people got off his case and let him have his head, he'd probably nobble himself with yet another outrageous whopper.

And Lo.....
 

dlrg

LE
So your criteria were:
(1) Find out if I actually wrote it. You were unsuccessful
(2) Find anything in the article that you could dispute. You were unsuccessful.
(3) Find anything in the article that didn't chime. Bingo!
But just because I wrote the article in 2011 doesn't mean that I can't revise and add to it as further facts are revealed, does it?

On a completely unrelated note: did I ever mention that I don't give a shite what you like or dislike?:p

MsG
My bold.

Where are your sources?
 
Anyway.
In an attempt to return this rather decent thread to sanity, as a keen fencer myself, I nominate Attila Petschauer. A very successful sabreur, persecuted by one of his opponents following his arrest by the Nazis.
 

RBMK

Old-Salt
I was wondering when some goobie would bring that up. Fact is that West Germany started its state-sponsored doping programme four years before the GDR (in 1970) and in all the international competitions only one single GDR sportsperson was ever temporarily banned for doping – almost a “clean sheet”. Compare that to the lamentable doping records of other nations.

Here’s an article I wrote on the subject in 2011. You might find it interesting.

MsG
@DaManBugs
You've referenced a MS Word document which you attached, and I've taken the time to read, but could you please reference where this was published?

As it is, there is no provenance, and it's not possible to tell whether it's been published in a newspaper, magazine or some internet forum or just something you knocked up on a wet Wednesday afternoon.

There is, of course, the excellent and widely quoted work editted by Scudero

but that is the only Google hit for the article title of your article "Doping in sports in the GDR". The nearest paper within Scudero is History of Doping and Doping Control by Rudhard Klaus Muller, but this is obviously not related to your article.

Before you go off on one, you have put "your" article up as being an authoritative work on the subject, but, from my extensive experience of publishing technical papers (26 years and counting), for a paper to be accepted it has to be within some form of technical journal and preferably refereed by a peer group knowledgeable in the subject.

Assuming that you don't want to blow your persec, I'm happy if you private message the provenance of the article to your MOD of choice e.g. @Smeggers, @Arte_et_Marte, @Sixty and I will, at that point, be willing to accept your knowledge on the topic subject to their confirmation that it has actualy been published in a credible forum.
 
Fact is that West Germany started its state-sponsored doping programme four years before the GDR (in 1970)
This is a genuine question Bugsy (I know, bit I am intrigued)
I can't find anything at all about a state sponsored doping programme in West Germany. Where did you get your info from and can you list some references?
 
Fact is that West Germany started its state-sponsored doping programme four years before the GDR (in 1970) and in all the international competitions only one single GDR sportsperson was ever temporarily banned for doping
Do you really believe that, or are you just so bent on supporting a discredited regime?


Bugsy: "West Germany started its state-sponsored doping programme four years before the GDR (in 1970)"

Reality: "The East German doping system started in the 1960s"

You don't do yourself any favours.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
This is a genuine question Bugsy (I know, bit I am intrigued)
I can't find anything at all about a state sponsored doping programme in West Germany. Where did you get your info from and can you list some references?
If you really are "intriegd", Murph's_Whore, and not just fishing for something negative in your usual way, you can find all the info you want here:
This is a range of articles on the subject (all in German):
systematisches doping in westdeutschland - Google Search
Here are two of those articles.
Studie: Systematisches Staats-Doping in Westdeutschland - WELT

Studie der Humboldt-Universität: Systematisches Doping in der BRD - DER SPIEGEL - Sport

MsG
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Do you really believe that, or are you just so bent on supporting a discredited regime?


Bugsy: "West Germany started its state-sponsored doping programme four years before the GDR (in 1970)"

Reality: "The East German doping system started in the 1960s"

You don't do yourself any favours.
Oh, really? The GDR began its doping programme in the 1960s? And where's your evidence for that? Notwithstanding that West Germany and the GDR fielded an all-German team until the middle of the 1960s

MsG
 
Oh, really? The GDR began its doping programme in the 1960s? And where's your evidence for that? Notwithstanding that West Germany and the GDR fielded an all-German team until the middle of the 1960s

MsG
If you'd bothered to read the article you'd have seen the citation is from:

Dimeo, P. Hunt, T. Horbury, R. (2011), "The individual and the State: A Social Historical Analysis of the East German ‘Doping System’" Sport in History, Texas, University of Texas, p.227

What does fielding an all-German team have to do with when they set up a programme?
 
Oh, really? The GDR began its doping programme in the 1960s? And where's your evidence for that? Notwithstanding that West Germany and the GDR fielded an all-German team until the middle of the 1960s

MsG
By the Gods, man. Just let it go. Agree to disagree. Plus, just because someone doesn't speak German, doesn't mean they know less. How about something in the Queen's beautiful language?
 

dlrg

LE
If you really are "intriegd", Murph's_Whore, and not just fishing for something negative in your usual way, you can find all the info you want here:
This is a range of articles on the subject (all in German):
systematisches doping in westdeutschland - Google Search
Here are two of those articles.
Studie: Systematisches Staats-Doping in Westdeutschland - WELT

Studie der Humboldt-Universität: Systematisches Doping in der BRD - DER SPIEGEL - Sport

MsG
Offering a Google Search title and two very short articles as an example, does not constitute research referenceing/sourcing. How can you expect your article (which I have read) to be taken seriously when there are no references to question or challenge.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
If you'd bothered to read the article you'd have seen the citation is from:

Dimeo, P. Hunt, T. Horbury, R. (2011), "The individual and the State: A Social Historical Analysis of the East German ‘Doping System’" Sport in History, Texas, University of Texas, p.227

What does fielding an all-German team have to do with when they set up a programme?
Just because something is published, doesn't mean that it's actually true. It also doesn't mean that the author(s) meant to mislead anyone. You'll note in the Wikipedia article that no evidence at all is offered, just the bland statement that it "started in the 1960s". For all I know there may well have been individual athletes using doping, but that again is just conjecture and applies to any nation. Fact is that there's no documented and/or reliable proof that systematic doping in the GDR started in the 1960s. There is, however, documented proof that the doping programme became "official" in the GDR in 1974.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the two Germanies fielded a collective team up until the middle of the 1960s, so West German athletes, sports doctors and administrators etc should have had some information on the subject. To date, there's been no publication whatsoever of any such folks outlining any suspicions about doping by the GDR participants. Given the latent animosity between the two states, surely something would've leaked out? Even at a later date?

MsG
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
Offering a Google Search title and two very short articles as an example, does not constitute research referenceing/sourcing. How can you expect your article (which I have read) to be taken seriously when there are no references to question or challenge.
It constitutes research if those articles (all of them) offer factual, documentary evidence that the West German state-supported doping programme started in 1970. There are also other references contained in the articles for further research. And there are documented references in my article too.

It seems (and I may be wrong here) that it only constitutes "research", in your opinion, if it agrees with your biases and prejudices.

MsG
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
By the Gods, man. Just let it go. Agree to disagree. Plus, just because someone doesn't speak German, doesn't mean they know less. How about something in the Queen's beautiful language?
It's not about "agreeing to disagree", it's about getting the facts right. And at no time have I ever claimed that just because someone can't speak/read German, they know less. Wherever did you get that from?

You seem dead set on questioning any and everything that I post, yet you won't go to the trouble of translating a few articles from German to English? I don't know if there are any English-language publications on the subject. I've never looked for them or needed them. I also trust Germans more when they're writing about specifically German issues.

MsG

By the way. The "queen's beautiful language"? Does she speak Italian, then?
 

dlrg

LE
It constitutes research if those articles (all of them) offer factual, documentary evidence that the West German state-supported doping programme started in 1970. There are also other references contained in the articles for further research. And there are documented references in my article too.

It seems (and I may be wrong here) that it only constitutes "research", in your opinion, if it agrees with your biases and prejudices.

MsG
I you wish to present an article to the public, then do so properly. You are intelligent enough to appreciate this.
You, are only too happy to challenge others in this regard.
 
Unfortunately, as usual, the thread was going swimmingly, and has degenerated into a slanging match, with points of reference on historical fact and importance quoted, miss quoted, taken out of context, all down to the ego of the OP, quoting his own submitted past text on a subject, doping, that in the great scheme of things, has no bearing on the thread title, DMB, you have managed to do it again, totally alienate, and anger other Arrsers, your monumental sense of self entitlement has total f***d up your only thread that had any semblance, of amounting to a good intellectual discussion, well done!

NB. You must learn when not to bite, and when saying nothing, is the best defence, you are your own worst pseudo-intellectual enemy.
 
Last edited:

Sixty

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Just because something is published, doesn't mean that it's actually true. It also doesn't mean that the author(s) meant to mislead anyone. You'll note in the Wikipedia article that no evidence at all is offered, just the bland statement that it "started in the 1960s". For all I know there may well have been individual athletes using doping, but that again is just conjecture and applies to any nation. Fact is that there's no documented and/or reliable proof that systematic doping in the GDR started in the 1960s. There is, however, documented proof that the doping programme became "official" in the GDR in 1974.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the two Germanies fielded a collective team up until the middle of the 1960s, so West German athletes, sports doctors and administrators etc should have had some information on the subject. To date, there's been no publication whatsoever of any such folks outlining any suspicions about doping by the GDR participants. Given the latent animosity between the two states, surely something would've leaked out? Even at a later date?

MsG
I've no dog in this particular fight but to be entirely fair, academic papers do provide confirmation that it started in the 1960s* and cite evidence drawn from the 1964 and 1968 Olympic Games.

Nevertheless there was enough "technical personnel" to keep the doping system running until the ending of the GDR. As an obvious example of GDR doping Franke mentioned the shot-putter Margitta Gummel. In 1964 Gummel achieved the fifth place in the Olympic Games without using anabolics. From July to October 1968 Gummel daily received two pills with five milligramme Oralturinabol, a fact proven by a secret document of the GDR regime. Within a short period of time the athlete could improve her record performance from 17.86 to 19 metres. In the Olympic Games in October 1968 in Mexico she won gold and set a 19.61 metres world record. In the year 1972 Gummel already consumed altogether 1450 milligramme - about as much as the male athlete Ben Johnson did 20 years later.
*“‘Doping in East and West between 1960-1990.’” Historical Social Research / Historische Sozialforschung, vol. 32, no. 1 (119), 2007, pp. 305–315.
 

RBMK

Old-Salt
It constitutes research if those articles (all of them) offer factual, documentary evidence that the West German state-supported doping programme started in 1970. There are also other references contained in the articles for further research. And there are documented references in my article too.

It seems (and I may be wrong here) that it only constitutes "research", in your opinion, if it agrees with your biases and prejudices.

MsG
Research usually means something other than quoting the first three google hits.

I'm still intrigued as to your "article". Was it part of a thesis at a university? Has it been something published in a non-English language journal, if so please give references to your MOD of choice.

At the moment I regard your article in post #168 as noting more than drivel unsupported byh any appropriate references or factual connections.

As usual, you're trying to make yourself out an authority on something without being able to support that assertion. Ignoring my previous post asking for references merely adds to my belief that you never actually published anything in your "article" and it's all just personal opinion unsupported by any basis in fact.
 

Tyk

LE
I doubt it would happen as it would not only make the whole athletics world look absurd plus harm the genuine athletes that didn't use doping techniques, just heaps of effort and talent, but isn't it high time that the records are expunged and started from scratch?

Is there a single one of the physical sports that hasn't had a doping or cheating scandal of some sort?

It's a real pity as the athletes that are straight and just work their bits off to achieve are tainted with the doping brush.
 

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