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Young Muslims want Sharia Law in UK

ericthellama

War Hero
Why teach them Bangladeshi indeed? They have settled in England. To improve their lot you would think English lessons might be useful. It's a very misguided thing to do to be honest. Not doing anyone any good, only creating a divided community. Could even be viewed as a sort of insidious racism in that we don't want them to feel like part of British culture and want them to reinforce their differences.
 

TheDoctor

Swinger
Nehustan said:
TheDoctor said:
Nehustan said:
In reference to an older thread they should have rejoined the UK in '56 :thumright: Like I said at the time the French would have kept Bliar in check with their call for that most medieval form of warfare...the siege :plotting:

(and the French might do well to study the Levantine part of their history :twisted: Like Napolean's savants in Aegypt previously, they may then be a little more savvy to their own immigrants)

Sounds good. What are we laying siege to exactly? Not a scholar of history myself but fail to remember many cities holding out against JDAMs etc.

May be worth a try in parts of northern england though... Where was this survey carried out?

(Hope this lowers the academic tone of this thread by the way)

:headbang:


I think the point might be, if I can put in the mouth of the French...'Ribbit'

erm...I mean that if a city/country is laid to siege, the need to drop JDAMs and/or employ catapult is minimised :thumleft:


Thanks for clarifying tactics there nehustan. Can you also explain the etymology of the term "siege engine" please? :meditate:
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
ericthellama,
I expect most were born in England, not that they have settled here. They are taught English (and in English) in school. These are extra curricular classes.

You will note that all education authorities provide evening classes in a whole of subects including foriegn languages, basket weaving and motorcycle maintenance. You can go and learn German in one of them so why can't these kids learn another language too?

Surely denying some people the opportunity the chance to learn a language of thier choice (were there is demand for it) whilst allowing others the opportunity is what would be devisive?

As for creating "divided" community, well there are such communities to be found everywhere. The Army is a community which has its own particular culture for example and tends to exclude outsiders. We all identify with a whole host of different "tribes".

My wife will speak Mandarin or Cantonese when with one set of friends, Malay when with another. I guess you would be excluded from both tribes, and even I am excluded from the Chinese speaking one (I can manage a bit of Malay). But how does that cause you, or society, a problem? You aren't Chinese or Malaysian, I presume you don't want to be, and if you wanted to join the club you could learn the language.

As her first language is English, she helps out with Army Cadets, spends some of her spare time raising money for service charities there are plenty of things that you might share in common with her.

On another level she is a chartered accountant and in terms of financial literacy she'd make us both look like dumbo's so there is another tribe she is part of and we are not.

Sorry, but division is to some extent normal and it has both positive and negative effects. On the plus side those of us who serve, or have served, in the army are members of an exclusive club which has some great benefits for example. If there were no divisions our club would not exist.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
I thought that was covered by catapult, however when I turn to that very useful and comprehensive source, wiki, I find that siege engine is delineated (tho not its etymology ;) ) with a very telling passage...

"A typical military confrontation in medieval times was for one side to lay siege to their opponent's castle. When properly defended, they had the choice whether to lay siege to the castle or to starve the people out by blocking food deliveries, or more proactively to employ war machines specifically designed to destroy or circumvent castle defenses."

[align=center]Source[/align]

[align=center]I think that this was what the French were proposing?[/align]

(edit: I seem to recall the immediacy of potential deployment of WMD in 45 minutes was one reason they weren't listened to?)
 

ericthellama

War Hero
You are quite right about the diversity of course, but spending a million quid in one borough? That doesn't sound like a normal evening class to me. As for the tribal issue, it's very true that we are all part of any number of sub-groups. In the context of this thread however, my concern is that they have subjugated the British tribe to those of the visitors. Your wifes social groupings appear to be perfectly compatible sub-groups of our society. Suggesting that Sharia law would be a viable alternative to our own lestablished system does not smack of an integrated section of the community making valid suggestions.

It is only sad that they have failed so miserably to even begin to understand the nation that is their home that they could suggest that Sharia law might be considered here. I view that as a complete failure on the part of the multicultural experiment.
 

intli

War Hero
GwaiLo said:
ericthellama,
I expect most were born in England, not that they have settled here. They are taught English (and in English) in school. These are extra curricular classes.
You will note that all education authorities provide evening classes in a whole of subects including foriegn languages, basket weaving and motorcycle maintenance. You can go and learn German in one of them so why can't these kids learn another language too?

Surely denying some people the opportunity the chance to learn a language of thier choice (were there is demand for it) whilst allowing others the opportunity is what would be devisive?


It is patently obvious from your posts that your wife is well educated and gifted, I admire many visitors to our country for their linguistic ability and their adaptability, a trait which most of us know does not come easy to the English. Also the attitude of 'they should all speak English from post-war years down the line has resulted in generations losing out on jobs that our European/Asian/Middle Eastern competitors do not, for, as they pride themselves in English, they also have their own language as a bonus too.

The point I raised on Tower Hamlets does not relate to the issue of people learning a language of their choice, rather it is the ultimate symptom of the multi-culture sickness that has gripped certain local authorities who have been taken over by zealots.

Tower Hamlets is one of the poorest boroughs in London, the Bangladeshis, as I stated earlier, are amongst the poorest ethnic group in UK. Those that come to UK have minimal education or skills and have been grouped into ghettoes like those in Tower Hamlets. The schools are 80-85% non-white and English is the second language of most pupils. Thus, the point on the expenditure by the council on Bangladeshi classes, (which for the main part are free as the families are skint) is that it reinforces division and does little to help the future generations to integrate or rise up from the poor standards of living they are born/brought into currently.

The whole point of my example was the LA should be pulling out the stops to increase the language standard of the children in English, which is what they will need for the future. If they need to speak as their parents then let them teach them. I hardly think that many will be looking for a career in Bangladesh when they leave school - other than possibly those in Teaching or Medicine who seek to advance their own people and increase their living standards.

This is how the new generations of ethnic immigrants are being failed - by a redundant system that has too many adherents and still gets money from Central Govt becuase it matches the rhetoric and defies reality. :elephant:
 

ericthellama

War Hero
Inlti, I do accept your points and agree. I fear that often it is such relatively small and incongruous issues that cause us concern. I am very aware that it is the current trend to treat every issue as debatable in the smallest detail but fear that we are losing the overiding principals at times.

I am sure that the Borough of Tower Hamlets would find its decisions perfectly defencable, but it seems that we have forgotton the bigger principal that, as you point out, they have settled here and need all the help they can get. Therefore it would make sense to invest in their futures and not in their pasts.

Edited for mong spolling (again)
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
but spending a million quid in one borough? That doesn't sound like a normal evening class to me.

You may have a fair point there...or not...I don't know the detail. At the end of the day we live in a democracy and if the voters in the borough don't like it they'll get the chance to vote out the politicians who made the decison.

Your wifes social groupings appear to be perfectly compatible sub-groups of our society. Suggesting that Sharia law would be a viable alternative to our own lestablished system does not smack of an integrated section of the community making valid suggestions.

If you read my earlier posts I have made the point that my wife is from an islamic country and consequently we have a lot of muslim friends. Not Bangadeshi, so I am no expert on them, but these "we want sharia" headlines rarely bother with the truth about how muslims feel and what they want. The vast majority are not looking to stone people etc. I am not going to repeat what I said earlier, but do read it and perhaps you will accept that the sort of extremism which would worry me is very rare.

Multiculturalism seems to mean different things to different people. So when someone says they are for or against it knowing just what they mean is impossible. I see it this way. I was born and grew up in the East End, in the very borough in question. So on one level culturally I am a working class cockney. Consequently I don't share anything culturally with the British Aristocracy for example. I served in the RGJ (Reg, TA and now I'm old and fat as a Cadet AI) and am imbued with that Regiments culture and ethos. I also have an older half brother (born here in 1948) whose father was Nigerian, so have always been part of a multi racial and multi cultural family. I am married to a Chinese Malaysian who, quite fairly and rightly, is as proud of her roots and culture as I am of mine. So multicultural is what I am, what my family is. It is rather odd to be told that we are a failed experiment particularly when one considers that after leaving the Army (and largely because of the ethos and confidence it gave me) I got a degree, qualified as a professional and now run my own professional practice. My black older brother got into IT in the 1960's and made enough money to retire in comfort, with homes in London, Spain and Italy, by the time he was 50. My wife is a well paid Chartered Accountant. You'll appreciate that many people would enjoy failing if this is failure.

My essential point is that we all have the right to know about our own culture/s and the fact that I am proud of having been a Greenjacket and celebrate it does not harm someone who is a Guardsman (as my father was) or detract from it. That my wife is proud of her roots both in Malaysia and China and celebrates her culture does not harm or diminish me or my culture. In fact it is our habit to go for pie, mash and eels on a saturday and dim sum on sunday...could be why I am a fat bastard of course.

My kids could go to council funded evening classes to learn Chinese, and I don't see why they shouldn't do you? And if thats OK then why isn't it OK for Bangadeshi kids?
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
Oh, and in reply to your earlier post;

Methilman. I take my hat off to you. Many feel exactly the same way and to be honest, if I could get away to a better place I certainly would not hesitate. The trouble is that the better places are a lot more discerning than we are about who they let in than we are. I am probably now too old to jump ship but don't mind manning the pumps while you make good your escape.

Well I shall be off on retirement...to Malaysia. I won't assimilate, nor would Malaysians expect me to. I will continue to speak English when I can, continue celebrating my culture, etc. It is a little embarrasing to say that the Malaysians I know, despite it having some significant racial and religious tensions of its own, don't expect the people who migrate there to become faux malaysians. I can't understand why we expect immigrants to become plastic Englishmen (or Scots/Welsh/Irish).
 
Having read all 11 pages in this post cannot understand why no-one has mentioned that only 1000 people took part in this poll out of 1,6M muslims in the UK. (Apart from the first entry, just re read it, whoops) Surely this is important, as is the context of the questions asked within the poll, or are these points not conductive to a good rant.

How can the answers of a few hundred young muslims, be used as the basis for all the headlines - Ping - Bad news sells, good news gets buried.

I am not saying that there are no problems that need sorting in the UK, but with 1.6m against 60m surely all this is over the top.
 

BOSBOASUTM

Swinger
Can't be bothered to read 11 pages of ranting, and I don't condone the whole Sharia law thing, however, there is something to be said about chopping hands off thieves, stoning adultering wives to death and other ideas that we the great empire used to consider as perfectly legitimate punishments (well similar anyway)
Certain elements of the law would also ease the prison overcrowding situation, or should we just keep packing them in until they start to compost. Any thieving, drug taking scum bag who mugs old ladies, or paedo's really don't deserve their oxygen ration.
Used to be called FD... AGAI67 just doesn't have the same ring to it!
 

FlakeShag

Old-Salt
BOSBOASUTM said:
Can't be bothered to read 11 pages of ranting, and I don't condone the whole Sharia law thing, however, there is something to be said about chopping hands off thieves, stoning adultering wives to death and other ideas that we the great empire used to consider as perfectly legitimate punishments (well similar anyway)
Are you compareing an 1800's empire with a modern culture?
 

darth_fokker

Old-Salt
rockape34 said:
Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran. The figure among over-55s, in contrast, was only 17 per cent.

One in eight young Muslims said they admired groups such as al-Qa'eda that "are prepared to fight the West".

Turning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death." Among the over 55s, the figure is only 19 per cent

Forty per cent of younger Muslims said they would want their children to attend an Islamic school, compared to only 20 per cent of over-55s.

Three out of four young Muslims would prefer Muslim women to "choose to wear the veil or hijab," compared to only a quarter of over-55s.

Obviously, you didn't realise that 78.6518% of all statistics are made up...
 
GwaiLo said:
Oh, and in reply to your earlier post;

Methilman. I take my hat off to you. Many feel exactly the same way and to be honest, if I could get away to a better place I certainly would not hesitate. The trouble is that the better places are a lot more discerning than we are about who they let in than we are. I am probably now too old to jump ship but don't mind manning the pumps while you make good your escape.

Well I shall be off on retirement...to Malaysia. I won't assimilate, nor would Malaysians expect me to. I will continue to speak English when I can, continue celebrating my culture, etc. It is a little embarrasing to say that the Malaysians I know, despite it having some significant racial and religious tensions of its own, don't expect the people who migrate there to become faux malaysians. I can't understand why we expect immigrants to become plastic Englishmen (or Scots/Welsh/Irish).

I hope you're not going to Johor Bahru. That is a cess-pit of corrupt cops, robbers and pick-pockets. On the plus side, you can get DVDs really really cheap (like 1 for a pound).

KL is OK though.
 

ericthellama

War Hero
Good morning GwaiLo. I accept your points, but you are talking about individuals inter-marrying and cultural mixes at a micro level, which is the way it has always happened in the past. This has provided a managable mix of cultures at the level where we have always absorbed and adapted to the mix. Your wife doesn't live in a Malaysian ghetto, but is married to a local, has obviously joined in with the prevailing system and made a great success of it. Isn't that what everybody wants?

What we tend to have now, partly due to the scale, and partly due to the nature of immigrants, are very large pockets for whom there is no compunction to integrate, who actually refuse to integrate and who establish closed societies which add nothing to the host society.

I am just as sorry to see the English in Spain creating ghettos and actually taking over local councils. If they are going to retire and live there, they should at least make an effort to fit into the local culture! Nobody would expect you to lose your cultural identity when you emigrate but you would be expected to fit into the culture of your host and respect the society that has welcomed you in. That's what you plan to do. You have the advantage of a Chinese Malaysian wife and a working knowledge of the culture. Again, at a micro level it works. That's not what we have happening here.
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
I hope you're not going to Johor Bahru. That is a cess-pit of corrupt cops, robbers and pick-pockets.

LOL

Ah, well corruption is pretty widespread, endemic even. Drives me crazy. Also plenty of robbers in KL, although I have never had a problem.

Likelyhood is we will settle in Petaling Jaya where my wifes family live, so on the outskirts of KL.

I have to be honest, there are lots of things...I could rant on all day...that I don't like about Malaysia. But they are far more welcoming to people like us than we are to people like them, of that there is no doubt. No malaysian I have ever met, even very devout muslims, would expect me to assimilate.

Nonetheless they have many of the same issues we are discussing, a lot of illegal immigration from Indonesia for example and they do get treated very badly.
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
but you are talking about individuals inter-marrying and cultural mixes at a micro level,

OK, another true story for you. When dad left the Army after 20 odd years he could only afford to buy a house in Beeston, Leeds. Since then the area has become a predominantly muslim asian one. Now infamous for being at the centre of the tube bombings.

As mum and dad got older and thier health failed (mum is still alive, but not at all well, dad died last year) their asian neighbours made sure that someone visited them daily. The neighbours made sure they got fed, got shopping done for them, essentially looked after them. When either of them needed to go to hospital, after dad was no longer able to drive, the neighbours would drive them. Now the neighbours do the same for my mum, including her housework. It is probably safe to say that without them mum probably wouldn't be alive (she is too stubborn to move and none of us can move to Leeds). She certainly wouldn't be as comfortable without them.

One of the neighbours who had done a great deal for mum and dad owns a shop which got raided after the tube bombings. As he and his family lived above the shop they were unable to live at home for about a week. For that week the asian mum and her kids lived with my mum and dad. I should add that the neighbours cooperated with the police and were never charged or accused of anything. They don't know why they were raided.

Late last year when my father died a number of those neighbours came to his funeral. They would not come into the chapel for the christian service, but they came with us, waited outside, and returned home with us.

Remember this is the same place which some imagine is a hotbed of islamic extremism. And this is a whole local community, not just a couple of individuals.

So honestly my experience is that if you treat them with respect (I think it helped that dad had spent a lot of time in the middle east during his service) you get it back in spades.

You don't like being told how to live your life, so long as you obey the law, I'd wager. I don't either. Why would you expect anyone else to think differently?
 

ericthellama

War Hero
As I said earlier in this thread, I do believe that these cultures have a great amount that they could contribute to our own. I think that we have largely lost the close sense of community that they posses, commitment to the family, mutual social support networks. Our own culture seems to be giving itself up to consumerism and shallow short term gratification.

If we encouraged immigrants to integrate, these are some of the qualities that we would beneift from, slowly and over time as the cultures are absorbed. As stickandcarrot pointed out, the ratio is something around 1.6m to 60m. It really wouldn't take much effort to encourage incomers to mix into our society would it? Why do we not ask them to make the effort?
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
eric,
thats a fair point and I am all for it, but put crudely you don't encourage better relationships by telling someone constantly what you don't like about them and how they must change to conform to your required standards.

That said I am not suggesting for a moment that any of this is easy. There is clearly a great deal of mistrust and poor understanding on both sides. I worry about extremists on both sides and the damage they do and whilst I recognise they are a tiny minority I am well aware of the broader influence they can have. Hell, anyone who served in NI knows what a tiny minority of agressive and intolerant people can do to the wider community.

I despair of politicians and the media, and other than doing my small bit on a personal level, and encouraging others to do the same, I don't know that I can do much else. I also realise that I have an advantage because I know so many immigrants and come from a mixed race family, so I can't expect others to see things the way I do. But I am convinced, utterly convinced, that only a complete bigot would the muslims I know anything other than kind, warm, decent and honest people. But how to get people mixing as I do, I just don't know.
 

ericthellama

War Hero
Fair point GwaiLo. I often get accused of generalising. We can all pick and choose examples and I am the first to tell people that in my travels around the globe it is the Muslims who are the most open handed every time. We all seek the same basic things in life but it is the culture in which we are brought up that influences the way we achieve those things to a great degree. The trouble we have is that we are living under a media blanket that either demonises the immigrant population on the one hand or represses any robust discussion about integration.

We have somehow been told that our history is so deplorable, narrow minded and racist that it has no value. People will bleat about our role in slavery but not our role in ending it. History is viewed in the light of today rather than in its own context. As custodians of a nation which has a rich and vibrant history of its own, that has shaped the modern world, we are somehow taught to feel ashamed and tainted.

How are we to encourage immigrants to integrate when we ourselves are not encouraged to hold up British values as an example of any value?
 

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