You Know, I Still Love The Brits, But...

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by yank_eyetie, Aug 14, 2007.

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  1. Well, it's certainly written by an anti-british policy think tank.

    It comes across as written by someone who dislikes criticism of a US policy and so feels the need to put down British policy.

    I don't like a lot of things politicians come out with but,

    Yes, hard evidence that Iran is backing terrorism. Last time the British followed evidence provided by the US we ended up in Iraq because of lies about WMDs. Not likely to make THAT mistake any time soon.

    This line indicates exactly the kind of people writing this report,

    I suspect that the west, as they put it, would not be in nearly as much danger as it is now had Iraq not been invaded and whipped up so much anti-west feeling.

    Also, wonderful to see that the Brits are already taking flak from the US who are pulling out the stops and saying, effectively, "If it wasn't for the Brits we would have won". Talk about covering your backs.

  2. Careful. Bliar was and is just as culpable as any American politician in selling the WMD idea. In fact he helped sell the idea to our congress to get the war rolling.

    While I didn't really want to comment on this article, I though it was a bit harsh, biased, and completely minimizes anything that Britain has done over there. I don't agree with it.

    That being said however, when it comes to Iran I think that there is a conflict of views here.

    There's always been anti-west sentiment and I would argue that us being there now is actually lowering it more than raising it. Iraqis actually get to meet Americans, learn more of our culture and see that we try our best (although don't always get it right the first time).

    I don't see anyone disagreeing that the new weapons and training are coming from Iran. I think the squabble is over whether or not the Iranian government is directly or indirectly involved via Quds.

    The US stance is that "they sure aren't doing much to stop it" and therefore supporting it by apathy at the very least.

    British on the other hand want very specific proof of the Iranian government involvement. I don't recall anyone saying what acceptable proof would be.

    Fact of the matter is that I really don't know what to believe but if Iran helping to quagmire the US military and training a Hezbollah type group in Iraq to extend its influence just makes a lot of sense. I just don't buy the "who me?" act.

    There are also a lot of British politics coming into play with the pullout.
  3. Of course, you're right, ghost_us. Bliar was as much at fault as Bush in the whole thing. I was angered by the tone and general attitude of the document in question, and wrote that without really thinking it through.

    We broadly agree, though, that the document in question...


    And you're also completely right about politics being involved in the pullout. Problem is that the vast majority of the UK does not want to be in Iraq, and so to stay there without sig of pulling back is political suicide - Broon can't afford it.
  4. Biped

    Biped LE Book Reviewer

    That article has really p1ssed me off, so here comes a rant:

    Before WW1, and after WW2, our 'allies' the septics made a concerted effort, and succeeded in getting the British to walk away from her empire. This was done in part, by bankrupting the UK through lend-lease and insisting as part of the deal that we gave many of our overseas bases to the US. The UK had to give the US a large part of our gold reserves to pay for ships that broke their backs on the way to the UK for example. It was a definitive policy of the US to take over from the UK as a world power, whilst at the same time reducing our country to a virtual vassal state. At the end of WW2, the US was more keen to sideline Churchill and his warnings about Russia and deal with Stalin direct in the proposed carve-up of Europe than see the writing on the wall - result? The Marshall Plan and 50 years of cold war.

    After WW2, the septics refused to share ANY intelligence with the UK, and that included atomic power. They only came back to the bargaining table when we stole those secrets for ourselves.

    The US wanted AND got a monopoly on global power, and for many, many years it has been the country with all the muscle AND money, at great expense to UK national interests - Suez being a case in point; Blue Streak being another. The septics got what they wanted, and must now carry the responsibility that goes with it.

    Some might argue in favour of this so-called grand alliance between our two countries, but the truth is, we've only been given scraps and left-overs in return for kissing arrse over the last 60 years. Why else did we not stop rationing until the 50's?

    The Iraq project is any AMERICAN one, was from the outset and will continue to be one. Just because Bush found an even more stupid and inane PM than he is a President to do his bidding at even more cost to British prestige, lives and money, does not mean that we should continually follow their lead in the septic global power game (that weaselly gimp has now left office) - even less so when there are no rewards for the UK in such activities. Why ELSE do you think most other countries have kept out of this one?

    The US leaders can whinge all they like about how we have deserted them in the deserts, but we have done our fair share for less than a fair share of the benefits. Perhaps if the US can tell the British people exactly why our soldiers are being injured and killed in Iraq, and to what end, then we might be more supportive, but I suspect that if they ever did fess up as to the real reason why, we'd have our forces out a damn sight quicker.

    No, it's sad that the US didn't know what to do with the power it grabbed. It's sad that successive UK governments have had no balls to defend our interests, and even now hand our country on a plate to the EU.

    The USA created this 'serious enemy' facing the west through it's support and arming of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and it did the same by propping up Saddam Hussein for all those years whilst he killed hundreds of thousands of his own and Iranian people.

    America is the LAST country on this planet that we should want to secure our 'freedom' and 'peace' in this world, let alone foster good international relations.
  5. TheIronDuke

    TheIronDuke LE Book Reviewer

    yank_eyetie eh? Tell Big Paulie I was asking?

    See, this piece goes to the heart of our problems with you Septics.

    You are indeed, the Global Superpower by any and all criteria. Nukes, boots on the ground, navy, air force, space defence vapourware, whatever, you are indeed, the boys.

    but you're so touchy, you know? If anyone questions your monkey Bush, your disastrous foreign and military policy which, forgive me for pointing out, has got some fine lads from my country loaded out the back of a Herculese in a box, you go all pantomime fairy.

    Now, we've stood by you in Iraq, despite it all, and yes, Blair is every bit as much to blame as Bush, but my friend, we reserve the right to question the big boy in the playground, OK?

    It doesnt mean we dont like you.
  6. Trip_Wire

    Trip_Wire RIP


    Nice Rant! As rants go.

    The problem with it is that the majority of your 'rant' has little to do with the article in question and a lot more to do, with your overall biased views of America, it's policys and Americans in general.

    When one examines your collective posts, it would seem that you never pass up a chance to vent your dislike of America and Americans.
  7. Biped. Excellent post.
  8. Well, Trip, a lot of what Biped said has foundings in historical fact, so it can be hard to refute.

    No, I don't hate Americans, but I do wonder when the public in America will look at why the world is in the state it's in today.

    Screw it, I'm tired and I can't do a debate about America: Cause of the collapse of the world...
  9. Ah Goon, welcome to the wonderful world of Trip_Wire. Any argument gleefully entered into, as long as it involves his view of the world, and doesn't contain the slightest hint of criticism of US policy.

    But hey, a blinkered horse always walks a straight line.
  10. TheIronDuke

    TheIronDuke LE Book Reviewer

    See, my friend, this goes back to what I said about Pantomime Fairies?

    Some of us question American foreign policy. American military strategy, American might and muscle in the modern world.

    Now, since you are the biggest kids on the block at the moment, that is quite right and proper I think.

    It doesnt mean we hate you. Just we'd like to have a chat without you screaming "You all hate us F4gZ00RZZZ"

    We dont, actually. We'd just like to talk about it.
  11. Tripwire, Biped's post may be a little non-specific in relation to the lead article but it certainly puts it into context. Perhaps those with a wider view of Great Britain's (a title less and less used sadly) geo-political position may be able to justify our pathetic grubbing about at the coat tails of US policy but to the little man in the street, it offends.
    The denizens of the US are insular and un-wordly. And it shows. Jealous since WW1 of the Empire they whispered and schemed to destroy it, claiming to despise it. Yet at the first opportunity the US has sought to build it's own empire.
    The British empire was basically commercial. With commercial success comes power, in terms of influence. GB was never a great military power in the true sense;her true power lay in her ability to influence and persuade and ultimately to rattle a few sabres to secure her position. The traditional view in Britain is that a huge army is a waste of money. Even retaining a large navy was railed against. The Yanks want commercial power but they also like to bully and betray. The land of the free? Maybe, so long as no-one else stands against you. The states are reactionary, small-minded and intolerant. But the real problem is a complete inability to come to terms with why the Arab world hates you, closely followed by the intense dislike of the western world.
    Your country displays a typical redneck inability to see beyond US values and beliefs and you are a typical US citizen.
  12. You know, it's worth mentioning that roughly half of the U.S. (fluctuating depending on the polls) think that Bush is an idiot and that Iraq was a Pandora's box we can't shut.

    Do me a favor of not generalizing and I'll do the same, huh?
  13. American arrogance, and the fact that they just cannot take any form of criticism, no matter how constructive, engenders disaffection and dislike.
  14. Tankies Yank - I realise there are some free - thinking Americans. I may even have met one. TW ain't one of them and since you wonderful people elected Bush you can take the flak! Since I have been on this planet, US foreign policy has been questionable to say the least.
    I do however sympathise : to paraphrase a well known saying, having been born an Englishman I won the lottery of life