Yediot Ahronot: IDF is no longer such a great army

In Lebanon Israel

  • lost

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • is losing

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • is neither winner nor loser

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • is winning

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • won

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It is too early to judge

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290590,00.html

Maybe politicians didn't realize IDF is no longer such a great army
...
This just war of ours in Lebanon is almost over. The IDF lost.
...
Mofaz and others created a heavy, immobile army, with many tanks and learned to move like huge behemoths through the alleyways of Palestinian cities.
...
The IDF underestimated Hizbullah.
...
we, with our Jewish minds, fell right into the trap set for us. Iran sent us a sharp message to teach us a lesson. We fell into a trap, just like the Americans in Iraq .
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
#2
The article reads like incoherent rambling rather than constructed journalistic prose. Is this a translation into English? I think the author's contention that the IDF's junior ranks have won their wars despite their generals ignores the very real commandership (sic?) of Moshe Dayan and Yitzak Rabin.
 
#3
The IDF has not fought a war like this since their Lebanon days and the problems the IDF ran into may have reflected that inexperience. Their politicians lack of focus on which strategy to pursue probably didnt help. The IDF has encountered tactics that they havent trained for, primarily the wide use of ATM's against infantry hunkered down in buildings.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#4
Sergey, sorry to butt into a serious thread but your signature just made me laugh out loud...

'Ugly women do not exist, it just means you've not drunk enough Vodka'

LOL...as I don't drink I guess I have an excuse for being choosy

(P.S. is it new??)
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#5
Now a comment on the article. It seems honest and no doubt a perspective. I enjoyed reading it. Despite his ashkanasim name and Israeli indoctrination (which he himself admits to having progressed from), I detect an Arab inside trying to break out. I'm betting Yemen or maybe the Maghrib.
 
#6
KGB_resident said:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290590,00.html

Maybe politicians didn't realize IDF is no longer such a great army
...
This just war of ours in Lebanon is almost over. The IDF lost.
The damn thing isn't over and he's already declared it a loss? The reality seems to be it was no such thing. I think he's confusing poor initial operational tactics with a 'loss'.

The first few weeks of the war the IDF's General Udi Adam tried to fight a predominately air war without many boot on the ground to minimize casaulties. He was replaced last week with Moshe Kaplinsky, hence the recent major movement of troops and tanks into the region.
 
#7
tomahawk6 said:
The IDF has not fought a war like this since their Lebanon days and the problems the IDF ran into may have reflected that inexperience. Their politicians lack of focus on which strategy to pursue probably didnt help. The IDF has encountered tactics that they havent trained for, primarily the wide use of ATM's against infantry hunkered down in buildings.
Does this really work? Is the idea that you launch one in onto the position on Friday early evening, they all queue up keen for some beer tokens for the weekend and you shoot them whilst they search around their numerous pockets for their credit cards?

These Arabs are certainly ingenious.
 
#8
While I'm not ready to say the Israelis lost, I'll say that this campaign revealed many weaknesses in their defense establishment--going from problems of funding, training, and equipment, to political and social issues of willingness to win, and means used to gain the victory. Excellent article from Ha'aretz on this subject:


Generally it is not right to conduct an in-depth investigation of a wartime failure during a war. However, at the end of the most embarrassing year of Israeli defense since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Israeli government is not drawing conclusions. It is not reorganizing the system, there is no evidence of a real learning curve and it is not radiating a new ethos. On the contrary: It is adding another layer of folly onto a previous one. Its slowness to react is dangerous. Its caution is a recipe for disaster. Its attempt to prevent bloodshed is costing a great deal of bloodshed. So that now of all times, just when the forces are moving toward south Lebanon, there is no escaping the question of where we went wrong. It is so that Israel will be able to achieve a last-minute victory and so that the troops will be able to achieve their goals and so the soldiers will be able to return home safely, that we must ask already now: What happened to us? What the hell happened to us?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749564.html

Israel certainly has some evaluating and soul-searching to do.
 
#9
Nehustan said:
Sergey, sorry to butt into a serious thread but your signature just made me laugh out loud...

'Ugly women do not exist, it just means you've not drunk enough Vodka'

LOL...as I don't drink I guess I have an excuse for being choosy

(P.S. is it new??)
It is a well-known Russian saying with meaning: after sufficient quantity of vodka all women become at least handsome.

Back to the theme. I haven't voted myself (not to distort the common picture because I don't belong to the British military).

The question is a very hard indeed.

This war is at least a moral victory of Hezbollah. They demonstrated courage, effective tactics, proved that IDF could be defeated.

But as for the strictly military aspect then Israel is able to win and in fact is winning (however the cost would be high).

But from political, diplomatical point of view, position of Hezbollah is much better and in this sense they are winning. Now it is possible that Israel could even give up Shebaa Farms.

But this cease-fire is probably stubborn. So a month of fierce fightings is likely only the first stage. What would be a result of other stages? Who knows? So maybe it is too early to judge?
 
#10
Nehustan said:
Now a comment on the article. It seems honest and no doubt a perspective. I enjoyed reading it. Despite his ashkanasim name and Israeli indoctrination (which he himself admits to having progressed from), I detect an Arab inside trying to break out. I'm betting Yemen or maybe the Maghrib.
http://www.ithl.org.il/author_info.asp?id=134

Yoram Kaniuk, one of Israel`s leading writers, was born in Tel Aviv in 1930. After being wounded in Israel`s 1948 War of Independence, he moved to New York for 10 years. A painter and a journalist, he began writing novels and short stories in the 1960s. Kaniuk has published 16 novels, six books of short stories and novellas, two books of non-fiction, a biographical novel and five books for children and youth. His work has been published abroad in 20 languages.
 

diplomat

MIA
Book Reviewer
#11
The IDF is just the best 'arab' army in the region, but with better kit. Nothing more. Having spent some time in West Bank and Gaza, their general COIN tactics are very patchy and mostly consist of scared 18 - 20 year old conscripts sitting in bunkers as targets. Obviously Shin Bet and Mossad etc are more than highly competent, but this is a minority.

Can't comment on their effectiveness on what they are doing now, you would have to ask Hez for that perspective!
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#12
KGB_resident said:
Nehustan said:
Now a comment on the article. It seems honest and no doubt a perspective. I enjoyed reading it. Despite his ashkanasim name and Israeli indoctrination (which he himself admits to having progressed from), I detect an Arab inside trying to break out. I'm betting Yemen or maybe the Maghrib.
http://www.ithl.org.il/author_info.asp?id=134

Yoram Kaniuk, one of Israel`s leading writers, was born in Tel Aviv in 1930. After being wounded in Israel`s 1948 War of Independence, he moved to New York for 10 years. A painter and a journalist, he began writing novels and short stories in the 1960s. Kaniuk has published 16 novels, six books of short stories and novellas, two books of non-fiction, a biographical novel and five books for children and youth. His work has been published abroad in 20 languages.
Well there's a suprise I imagined someone in their 30s. I don't know why It was just the image I had in my head...
 
#13
Of course its a loss for Israel, they patently didnt achieve any of their explicitly stated objectives, namely the return of their soldiers and the destruction of Hezbollah.

Also who honestly thought they would lose over 30 Merkava tanks?

Will heavy armour become obsolete?
 
#14
Taz_786 said:
Of course its a loss for Israel, they patently didnt achieve any of their explicitly stated objectives, namely the return of their soldiers and the destruction of Hezbollah.

Also who honestly thought they would lose over 30 Merkava tanks?

Will heavy armour become obsolete?
Taz if you got the figure of 30 merkavas from Hezb or similar source take a pinch of salt with it. They may have possibly hit 30 armoured vehicles and some of these may of only been mobility kills. Frankly, their AT threat was highly lethal.

I agree, the non-return of the 2 soldiers is a lack of achievement, but as far as Hezb goes, total eradication was never a possibility. Where Hezb get kudos is by declaring victory in arab world (rather like Sadat in '73 - if you go to a Egyptian military museum they class '73 as a victory). Rhetoric does not always equate to the truth or a proper view of the actual facts.

I dont think heavy armour will become obsolete any time soon, so long as conventional manouvuerist type wars are still possible.
 
#15
Dilfor said:
tomahawk6 said:
The IDF has not fought a war like this since their Lebanon days and the problems the IDF ran into may have reflected that inexperience. Their politicians lack of focus on which strategy to pursue probably didnt help. The IDF has encountered tactics that they havent trained for, primarily the wide use of ATM's against infantry hunkered down in buildings.
Does this really work? Is the idea that you launch one in onto the position on Friday early evening, they all queue up keen for some beer tokens for the weekend and you shoot them whilst they search around their numerous pockets for their credit cards?

These Arabs are certainly ingenious.
From Strategy Page;
The missiles are used to take long range shots at Israeli infantry, as Hizbollah knows that, up close, their gunmen tend to lose quickly, and with heavy casualties, to the better trained Israelis. Russia has been selling these new missile systems to Syria and Iran, and this is the first real combat test of these systems. A few Israeli tanks have been hit, but most of the missiles have been fired at Israeli infantry, causing over a hundred casualties.
 
#16
They are losing so far. Bombing southern Lebanon did not achieve any strategic aim and lost the propaganda war. By comparison, Hizbollah won a propaganda victory. No lessons have been learnt by the IDF since Kosovo, let alone from watching the Yanks blundering in Iraq.

The IDF were apparently successful in launching a commando raid that targeted key Hizbollah figures - they are clearly capable in "special" sorts of operations requiring intensively trained and highly skilled troops, as opposed to fighting in an urban environment (perhaps the worst environment imaginable) with inadequately-trained regular and reserve troops.
 
#19
What propaganda war?
The war that was played out on the TV cameras, and that will be seen amongst disaffected Afghans and Iraqis as Hizbollah holding out against an IDF backed by US and UK. It will also encourage the Iranian President to rattle his sabre a little more...as much as I don't wish the US to bomb Iran, I do not believe that the Iranian regime is a beacon of tolerance and tranquility.
 
#20
IDF general: Troops lacking food can steal from Lebanese stores

By Haaretz Service

"If our fighters deep in Lebanese territory are left without food our water, I believe they can break into local Lebanese stores to solve that problem," Brigadier General Avi Mizrahi, the head of the Israel Defense Forces logistics branch, said Monday.

Mizrahi's comments followed complaints by IDF soldiers regarding the lack of food on the front lines.

"If what they need to do is take water from the stores, they can take,"
Mizrahi told Army Radio.
:?
 
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