Yank's question about the IRA's London Bombings in the 1990's

#21
#22
And THAT's the point of Brecher's article; namely that, at least in London during the 1990's, the Provos grasped something that other terrorist organizations didn't. Killing people is the object of a terrorist campaign, discrediting the government is.
They didnt choose to give prior warnings and go all "nerf-war" in London to discredit the UK government to further their politcal aims. They did it because if they killed innocents on a large scale then they would be shooting themselves in the foot big time.
It wasn't a tactic they chose to pour more terror onto the gov't and it's people by not killing people, but that if they chose the alternative then their support both at home and more importantly, abroad would dwindle.
 
#23
So let's not confuse IRA self control with humanity.
One of things on Arrse that I've noticed are some well justified sour feelings against elements of the Irish/American community in the US. Now as a WASP (white anglo-saxon, protestant) I typically take up the cause of defending Britain's historic international actions against others when the topic of conversation turns to the UK's role in history. I can typically silence the VERY real Fenian and anti-British sentiment when it arises. But, it is very important for everyone in the UK to remember that there are more full blooded Irish in America than there are in Ireland. That demographic fact plays a HUGE role in American politics and is one of the major reasons why the US was so very late in coming to the Empire's aid during both world wars.
 
#24
Re the killing of the horses...

It is an interesting point to note that the killing and maiming of so many horses did not endear the ira to their horse loving fellows, nor their horse loving detractors.

Sefton, in particular, won the heart of the world once it got out how he stood the blast, was wounded and then (IIRC) polo mints from all over UK (it was released that they wre his favourite) were sent by the ton.
 
#25
One of things on Arrse that I've noticed are some well justified sour feelings against elements of the Irish/American community in the US. Now as a WASP (white anglo-saxon, protestant) I typically take up the cause of defending Britain's historic international actions against others when the topic of conversation turns to the UK's role in history. I can typically silence the VERY real Fenian and anti-British sentiment when it arises. But, it is very important for everyone in the UK to remember that there are more full blooded Irish in America than there are in Ireland. That demographic fact plays a HUGE role in American politics and is one of the major reasons why the US was so very late in coming to the Empire's aid during both world wars.
A policy of Isolationism and the fact that the US cashed in on the two World Wars could have had an even greater role. More Americans are of German decent than Irish.
 
#26
Óglaigh na hÉireann (ONH) are not a splinter group, they are Provo's who lent their expertise to the dissidents and are now intensifying their own campaign.

The fella who was involved in the murder of Raymond McCartney(stabbed in a bar, with the biggest toilets in Belfast), Sean Clinton, was a former OC PIRA 3rd Batt Short Strand, he is now, ONH in Ballymurphy, because he got passed over for one of the jobs for the boys after the ceasefire.
That whole organisation is full of Provo's fucked off at Sinn Feins lack of movement on a United Ireland.
 
R

really?_fascinating

Guest
#27
What on Earth are you talking about?

My sentiment was not anti- Irish, it was anti IRA. How does my statement suggest any bias against Irish- Americans (although to be fair I have met some complete clowns who talked about 'the Old Country' in spite of being fourth generation New Yorkers).

But thanks for the lesson in American politics, very helpful.
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
#28
Just read the wikipedia article on the attack. The article mentioned a splinter group, the "real" IRA, I've heard of them before who are the in relation to the Provos?
You read Wikipedia? Wow. **** me. I do believe we have a live one. But I live to serve and my mission is to educate.

PIRA mostly watched The Clangers. Real IRA tend to favour The Moomins. Hope this helps with your research. When your book comes out can I have a signed one?
 

udipur

LE
Book Reviewer
#29
This reminds me of a New Year's do in Cornwall at the end of 2001. Some (overly serious) Yank woman decided to bring up the 9/11 attacks despite everyone else's best efforts to keep the evening light.

No comments coming from us, even when she said, "Of course, you don't have any experience of terrorist attacks in your homeland."

Aye, it were a cold night, but the steam from my ears altered that.

Whoever the bejasus you are, don't expect any sympathy for the IRA or their methods on here. They were gutless little shites of the worst order and we, pretty much to a man, would quite happily have taken off all our toys and battered them shitless on any given day.

Did you write the article and want some traffic for your blog?
 
#30
One of things on Arrse that I've noticed are some well justified sour feelings against elements of the Irish/American community in the US. Now as a WASP (white anglo-saxon, protestant) I typically take up the cause of defending Britain's historic international actions against others when the topic of conversation turns to the UK's role in history. I can typically silence the VERY real Fenian and anti-British sentiment when it arises. But, it is very important for everyone in the UK to remember that there are more full blooded Irish in America than there are in Ireland. That demographic fact plays a HUGE role in American politics and is one of the major reasons why the US was so very late in coming to the Empire's aid during both world wars.
It has **** all to do with NI and try telling that to a family down the Shankill or the Falls road who have had to live in fear every night at the risk of being killed or injured just because of their beliefs/politics. The Irish american community in America are massivly detached from the real situation in NI, nice how they were supplying weapons to the IRA until they got the taste of 9/11 then everything ******* changed didn't it.

Don't confuse Irish American cnuts with the real deal many who are active ARRSERS ( paitiently waiting for British and Proud) . Very few have had to experience the terror of the IRA's tactics which were not solely restricted to the authorities but were regularly carried out on Protestants and Catholics alike.

There are alot of complete cnuts who wax lyrics and support for the IRA yet would shit themselves if they ever found themselves in the situation that many innocents did in NI, unfortunatly they can rant and rave abovut the bad Brits and the romantic IRA with no reprisals. Personnaly I would like to impose on them the fear that the IRA posed on many of the Irish.

Please don't see this as targeted at you I do respect you are interested in this area but its an issue that really riles me.

Lads can you warm up the outrage bus for me please
 
R

really?_fascinating

Guest
#31
Duke - I thought that we were discussing PIRA of the 90s? My understanding is that in this period they were much more keen on Button Moon, with the S Armagh boys loving The Raggy Dolls.

Interestingly they hated Bagpuss and had Professor Yaffle on a secret 'hit list' - that is why he dropped off our screens in the late 80s. He now lives in secrecy on Channel 5 where no one will ever see him.
 
#32
Did you write the article and want some traffic for your blog?
Udipur,

I most certainly do not write the "War Nerd." However, I do read it a great deal, and I like to bounce some of its ideas off Brit squaddies to get a different perspective than I do with the Joe's in my US Army unit. Sorry about the chick in Cornwall, you do tend to see a very self centered bent and ignorance in most Yank thinking when it comes to foreign affairs. Maybe it comes from living in safe behind two oceans and the world's most powerful navy. 9/11 just made such thinking worse, I'm afraid.
 
#33
It has **** all to do with NI and try telling that to a family down the Shankill or the Falls road who have had to live in fear every night at the risk of being killed or injured just because of their beliefs/politics. The Irish american community in America are massivly detached from the real situation in NI, nice how they were supplying weapons to the IRA until they got the taste of 9/11 then everything ******* changed didn't it.

Don't confuse Irish American cnuts with the real deal many who are active ARRSERS ( paitiently waiting for British and Proud) . Very few have had to experience the terror of the IRA's tactics which were not solely restricted to the authorities but were regularly carried out on Protestants and Catholics alike.

There are alot of complete cnuts who wax lyrics and support for the IRA yet would shit themselves if they ever found themselves in the situation that many innocents did in NI, unfortunatly they can rant and rave abovut the bad Brits and the romantic IRA with no reprisals. Personnaly I would like to impose on them the fear that the IRA posed on many of the Irish.

Please don't see this as targeted at you I do respect you are interested in this area but its an issue that really riles me.

Lads can you warm up the outrage bus for me please
Already been dear chap.

2nd bold, they actually killed more Catholics than Protestants, not bad for a paramilitary force, tasked to defend their community, who were.... Catholics.
But then they do proclaim to be Irish, sums them up I suppose. Thick dirty scumbag bastards.
 
#34
Already been dear chap.

2nd bold, they actually killed more Catholics than Protestants, not bad for a paramilitary force, tasked to defend their community, who were.... Catholics.
But then they do proclaim to be Irish, sums them up I suppose. Thick dirty scumbag bastards.
They were pretty stupid in using the flag of the Republic which is supposed to symbolise peace between Protestants and Catholics I mean m,duuuuhhh, Oh well they shot themsleves in their own foot or kneecapped themselves ( sounds more appropriate)
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
#35
One of things on Arrse that I've noticed are some well justified sour feelings against elements of the Irish/American community in the US. Now as a WASP (white anglo-saxon, protestant) I typically take up the cause of defending Britain's historic international actions against others when the topic of conversation turns to the UK's role in history. I can typically silence the VERY real Fenian and anti-British sentiment when it arises.
Thanks Bud. Without you we'd be proper fucked. You are the wind beneath our wings.

But, it is very important for everyone in the UK to remember that there are more full blooded Irish in America than there are in Ireland.
Yeah, some of them are my good mates. Theres Dermot Kalswinski, Pargaig Chan, Semus Patel and Mikey Du Maurier. Loads of them. Many are also 1/3rd Soux Indian, 1/3rd Scottish, 1/3rd French, 1/3rd Nepali and 1/3rd whatever heroic nation they just read about on Wiki.

I swear Pargaig Chan's Mum is Welsh, but one hates to pry.
 
#36
One question I forgot to post; how effective were the London bombings on the newly elected Blair government, and what effect did they have on the NI peace process. Was Sinn Féin's hand strengthened or hampered by the bombings? Or would the Provos have been better served by waiting for higher Catholic birth rates to bring about a political solution?
 

TheIronDuke

ADC
Book Reviewer
#37
One question I forgot to post; how effective were the London bombings on the newly elected Blair government, and what effect did they have on the NI peace process. Was Sinn Féin's hand strengthened or hampered by the bombings? Or would the Provos have been better served by waiting for higher Catholic birth rates to bring about a political solution?
We will ask the questions.

When you weigh yourself naked, where are your hands?
 
#38
I'll give you three guesses...
 
#39
One question I forgot to post; how effective were the London bombings on the newly elected Blair government, and what effect did they have on the NI peace process. Was Sinn Féin's hand strengthened or hampered by the bombings? Or would the Provos have been better served by waiting for higher Catholic birth rates to bring about a political solution?
Ack **** it, in for a penny in for a British pound.

Bombs in London always drew the attention of the Government, as one in London was worth 10 in Belfast, at least the view in my community, as long as it happened in NI, it was there problem across the water, let it stay there.

I wouldn't say they had any real bearing on the peace process as the Provo's were talking to 10 Downing Street from the 70's but it got very serious when Sinn Fein realised, they wouldn't be getting there UI, by bullet or bomb.

Also the fact that MI5/Special Branch controlled the conflict in NI, probably had the biggest effect on the Provo's as there campaign was controlled by the security forces and they were effectively run down from the inside.

Higher Catholic birth rates mean **** all, theres only about 20 per cent of there community would vote for a UI anyway. The economic benefits of the Union of GB and NI far exceed the dreams of a UI. Money talks.
 
#40
One question I forgot to post; how effective were the London bombings on the newly elected Blair government, and what effect did they have on the NI peace process. Was Sinn Féin's hand strengthened or hampered by the bombings? Or would the Provos have been better served by waiting for higher Catholic birth rates to bring about a political solution?
Complex issues:

a. The London bombings were an expression of two things: the increasing Provo inability to mount prestige operations within NI - they were touted to **** and short on brave Volunteers willing to take chances in the dark (with the arguable exception of the S Armagh Brigade, who could be relied upon to get all sporty every time Button Moon was cancelled) - and a dawning realisation that, while mainland operations were ferociously expensive and complex to mount, they had the potential to do real economic and political damage. I wouldn't say the Major government (which actually kickstarted the GFA process) was moved by the London operations - St Marys Axe, Bishopsgate and South Quay - but they gave sufficient cover to allow the Shinners to come and talk witht he blessing of the Army Council. That they then settled for less than what was on the table in '72 is not our problem. I think it was Seamus Mallon who called the Good Friday Agreement "Sunningdale for slow learners".

b. Demographics, hah. Even if the minority community outbred the majority community, it's by no means clear to me that 100% of Catholics in NI would vote for a 32-County Republic, particularly as the current Republic doesn't want the Six Counties under any circumstances. Inject a million educated, aggressive and furious Unionists into the nice comfy FF/FG homogenous Irish state? Oh dear oh dear oh dear. We never really saw the Loyalist equivalent of the IRA during the Troubles, as they didn't need to stir themselves. Suffice it to say that, under what they'd consider the Armageddon scenario, there'd be many folk with military or police training who'd take an exceedingly dim view....

On a point of info, the War Nerd is an American journalist, formerly the editor of a fantastic English language newspaper in Moscow - the eXile - which was closed down by Putin's guys. He writes deliberately provocative stuff in an adopted persona as a fat data entry clerk living in California who gets his jollies from watching wars and warfare. Think of him as the Jeremy Clarkson of military commentators.
 

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