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WuFlu - Anti Vaxxers

Will you get the Vaccine?


  • Total voters
    146
I covered this in a response to 3toed sloth, which I presume we have to add to the list of things you haven't read properly.

In answer to your point, would I take his word as inviolable and at face value? No. I'm struggling to think of a politician who I would.
I’m guessing here that you don’t even read your own posts properly, as you were claiming it was semantics rather than Johnson being a liar that you based your position on.
 
There is no possible way that a vaccine was developed within twelve months of the first appearance of a disease without corners being cut with gay abandon. And I don't care how many eminent scientists get up and reassure us all that it has been properly tested. It cannot have been properly tested because nobody has had time to do the tests. I'm normally first up for any vaccine going. Flu, Hep B, Swine flu, pneumonia, I've had them all but this one I'm going to put off for as long as possible until I see if my friends and neighbours turn into those modern fast-moving zombies or something.

How do you know that?
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
If you had said that Johnson’s a liar and you can’t trust anything he says, the we wouldn’t have had this discussion, as I would have agreed with you. However, you stated that it was a matter of semantics, and there were no semantical tricks in Johnson’s statement. Your argument centres around his untrustworthiness, not semantics.

Which bit of "I can't find a categorical denial or any position that couldn't be reversed or adapted in the face of 'credible and considered scientific opinion'." are you struggling with?

I'm very happy to have a discussion related to the philosophical and political implications of compulsory mass vaccination or the nuances of political communications but at least understand that verbalising a position that you can do a 180 pivot from is, by definition, an exercise in semantics.

I've articulated what an absolute and unequivocal position would look like above.
 
Which bit of "I can't find a categorical denial or any position that couldn't be reversed or adapted in the face of 'credible and considered scientific opinion'." are you struggling with?

I'm very happy to have a discussion related to the philosophical and political implications of compulsory mass vaccination or the nuances of political communications but at least understand that verbalising a position that you can do a 180 pivot from is, by definition, an exercise in semantics.

I've articulated what an absolute and unequivocal position would look like above.
No, it’s clear now what you mean. You mean that anything Johnson says cannot be trusted, and you slipped up when you were wittering about “semantics”.
 

3ToedSloth

War Hero
Which bit of "I can't find a categorical denial or any position that couldn't be reversed or adapted in the face of 'credible and considered scientific opinion'." are you struggling with?

I'm very happy to have a discussion related to the philosophical and political implications of compulsory mass vaccination or the nuances of political communications but at least understand that verbalising a position that you can do a 180 pivot from is, by definition, an exercise in semantics.

I've articulated what an absolute and unequivocal position would look like above.
To make it compulsory...to not be vaccinated would need to be criminalised surely...so this would need to be passed by parliament....and not just rely on Boris. I can't see it happening and it would be counter-productive. I think you're worrying about nothing.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
When the vaccine becomes available I am going to have a dilemma. I run a company with a number of employees who work in peoples homes. We are in the mobility business and predominately work with seniors and people in poor health. Should one or more of the outside employees refuse to take the vaccine, or provide proof, am I failing in my duty of care sending them to my clients homes. Apart from any legal repercussions, I do not want to risk my clients safety. The HR view is that along with current testing I can’t censure my employees beliefs and morality.

Whatever the final informed solution may be, in your shoes I would be inclined to pull in my HSSE expert and give them some policy homework whilst also having a word with my insurers before I did anything else. I'd then run whatever they came up with past HR and a decent employment lawyer.
 
To make it compulsory...to not be vaccinated would need to be criminalised surely...so this would need to be passed by parliament....and not just rely on Boris. I can't see it happening and it would be counter-productive. I think you're worrying about nothing.
I don’t think it’s an accident. I think he’s trying to create a narrative where there is a possibility that the vaccine will be made compulsory. It’s not a case of worrying, it’s a case of trying to create fear.
 
There is no possible way that a vaccine was developed within twelve months of the first appearance of a disease without corners being cut with gay abandon. And I don't care how many eminent scientists get up and reassure us all that it has been properly tested. It cannot have been properly tested because nobody has had time to do the tests. I'm normally first up for any vaccine going. Flu, Hep B, Swine flu, pneumonia, I've had them all but this one I'm going to put off for as long as possible until I see if my friends and neighbours turn into those modern fast-moving zombies or something.

What parts of the development were not done? What specific risks are you concerned about?
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
To make it compulsory...to not be vaccinated would need to be criminalised surely...so this would need to be passed by parliament....and not just rely on Boris. I can't see it happening and it would be counter-productive. I think you're worrying about nothing.

I'm not 'worrying' about anything. The issue has been raised and it's being discussed. Lastwalt's got a weed up his backside about something but the rest of us are quite capable of having a civilised discussion about an issue and the surrounding principles which were actually a hot topic for soldiers when some of us served.

In terms of your analysis, I think you're right but, as I said earlier, it's possible that there'll be some sort of "freedom for vaccination" incentive, which raises some interesting ethical questions. Perhaps we might pick it up again tomorrow.

I shall leave lastwalt to fulminate.
 

Fang_Farrier

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer

Not too dissimilar over here.

All drugs and medications may potentially have long term side effects or issues that are not immediately apparent hence we have the yellow card reporting system for any adverse drug reaction.

 
I'm not 'worrying' about anything. The issue has been raised and it's being discussed. Lastwalt's got a weed up his backside about something but the rest of us are quite capable of having a civilised discussion about an issue and the surrounding principles which were actually a hot topic for soldiers when some of us served.

In terms of your analysis, I think you're right but, as I said earlier, it's possible that there'll be some sort of "freedom for vaccination" incentive, which raises some interesting ethical questions. Perhaps we might pick it up again tomorrow.

I shall leave lastwalt to fulminate.
I’m quite clear that you’re not worrying. I suspect that you’re a Farage cultist trying to stoke fear and uncertainty.
 
There is no possible way that a vaccine was developed within twelve months of the first appearance of a disease without corners being cut with gay abandon. And I don't care how many eminent scientists get up and reassure us all that it has been properly tested. It cannot have been properly tested because nobody has had time to do the tests.
Have a gander at this:
Oxford vaccine: How did they make it so quickly? - BBC News

Nat saying it will change your mind, but it explains why it was quick. In essence (military analogy follows) the bomb had already been developed, only the warhead needed sorting.

From my link:
"The biggest misconception is the work on the vaccine started when the pandemic began."
 
I really don't get why there is (putting to one side all the conspiraloon theories) such resistance to a vaccine - of course it's possible that there may be some long-term unforseen side-effects or even deaths, the same can be said for the virus itself. As far as I can see, the various vaccines have been developed with known & tested base compositions with specific Covid bits added.
Given the choice of taking my chances with 'best effort' anti-virals or the virus itself, I'll be opting for the anti-virals, no-one is as fit and healthy as they'd like to think they are and from what I read, it can take months to fully recover from the virus so i'll be taking the least-worst option as I see it, others have a different view which is fine, that's between them, their family and their conscience.
A couple of friends got COVID right at the start, it knocked them flat for a couple of weeks (they’re late 50s)then they recovered very slowly. A couple of weeks back, they had a relapse and another 2 weeks of grottiness And counting. Another mate (late 50s again) got it 3 weeks ago and was dead in a week... neither scenario enthrals me so I’ll be banging on the door as soon as a vaccine is available.
 
The Scottish Health Minister used the qualification 'currently'.

Boris Johnson has form for U-turns on COVID-related policy using scientific top cover, ergo, he could perform another one.

Therefore: "I can't find a categorical denial or any position that couldn't be reversed or adapted in the face of 'credible and considered scientific opinion'."
Sticking ‘currently’ in there seems fair to me. Compulsory vaccination seems unlikely, however should, in the future, circumstances arise when certain people absolutely must be vaccinated, it’s there in print and the MSM won’t be crowing about ‘U-Turns’ per usual.

Once the subcutaneous mind control chips are perfected, things may change...
 

3ToedSloth

War Hero
I really don't get why there is (putting to one side all the conspiraloon theories) such resistance to a vaccine - of course it's possible that there may be some long-term unforseen side-effects or even deaths, the same can be said for the virus itself. As far as I can see, the various vaccines have been developed with known & tested base compositions with specific Covid bits added.
Given the choice of taking my chances with 'best effort' anti-virals or the virus itself, I'll be opting for the anti-virals, no-one is as fit and healthy as they'd like to think they are and from what I read, it can take months to fully recover from the virus so i'll be taking the least-worst option as I see it, others have a different view which is fine, that's between them, their family and their conscience.
It's really a pretty simple numbers game.

X=Probability you catch a serious case of Covid
Y=Probability you get serious side effects from vaccine

It's almost certainly the case that X is much bigger than Y. So take the vaccine.
 
First of all, are you assuming that the people being visited won’t have been vaccinated? They may well have been so no drama. Secondly, what are your current methods of protection? Simply continue them? And third, have you actually canvassed your staffs’ opinion on the matter? They may be cool with inoculation, or at least most of them probably will be in which case it’s just down to careful management with the remaining non inoculated staff.

Unless I’m missing something?
Although I would expect most to vaccinate there will be some that won’t . Our clients want us to come so we will get the situation as now where a few will be untruthful and tell us after (we’ve had situations where they have passed the pre screening then told us afterwards that they did have it). Same with the staff I have a few that should have tested after close contact but refused (we enter the house but don’t have close contact with the client). Then we impose a work quarantine, which at home they may or may not observe. Trust is a huge thing and when you employ you learn quickly that not everyone is 100%.

On-site we wear booties, gloves and masks and dispose and clean up after each visit. It’s difficult to police and I’ve had one quit because he doesn’t want to wear it.

You are right, depending on numbers it will be a management issue after. When all this started my lawyer laughed and said this virus was going to keep her in business for ever.
 

happyuk

War Hero
You are very confused. Covid vaccination offers a way out of the social restrictions. Why would Bill Soros be pushing a vaccine that reduces government ability to control society?
Not just a vaccine but regular vaccines with constant regular updates. A bit like his shit operating system.
 

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