WuFlu - Anti Vaxxers

[Fang_Farrier]

I got threatened with IV sedation by a dentist once... Not sure why - they had me down as a nervous patient or something.

Sometimes used for wisdom teeth.

We were quite keen on it in the military in the 90s but we were all assistant anaesthetist trained so it was useful to keep up your iv access skills.

 

[Helm]

I was going to hole this bit I’ll allow it a bit longer I think. Play nice or expect thread bans.

Ahem

 

[Yokel]

Sometimes used for wisdom teeth.

We were quite keen on it in the military in the 90s but we were all assistant anaesthetist trained so it was useful to keep up your iv access skills.

Was that a BATLS thing?

Do dentists ever get fed up of just pull teeth out and doing fillings when they have the skills to do so much more? Do ones working in hospitals have a resuscitation role during major incidents?

 

[Civvy Scum]

I was referring to the original meaning of the term from the Greek.

My apologies, I forget not everyone has the benefit of an education.

I used to work with a bloke who has a degree in civil engineering. He said recently that he's been saying "for years" that THEY are going to do a Reset. Which is strange because prior to a few months ago, the only reset I was aware of was turning some electronic equipment back to it's factory settings.

When he got his current job, he asked if he could be paid in silver or gold, because he's convinced the economy is going to collapse "soon". No prize for guessing what he was told.

Just because someone has had an education doesn't stop them turning into a gibbering moonhowler.

 

[Taffd]

Then allow me to wish you all the very best, and kindest regards in advance for the festive season.

Most kind, ta muchly.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

Was that a BATLS thing?

Do dentists ever get fed up of just pull teeth out and doing fillings when they have the skills to do so much more? Do ones working in hospitals have a resuscitation role during major incidents?

War role.
ASRO Anaesthetic Support and Resuscitation Officer
name change but same role
CASO Combat Anaesthetic Support Officer.

Basically theoretically a consultant anaesthetist could oversee multiple operations by having ASRO sitting at patient's head monitoring situation.
But we were trained in intubation, iv access, drugs etc. Did BATLS as well.
This was in the era when dentists could do so but legislation has since changed.

In my experience most dentists are quite happy drilling and filling.

It's only the weird ones like me who step out of the comfort zone and offer to do more!
With my military experience am quite happy in theatre and help out in bits other than just the actual surgery.

Those in hospitals are usually oral surgeons so have that role in major incidents.

 

[halloumikid]

War role.
ASRO Anaesthetic Support and Resuscitation Officer
name change but same role
CASO Combat Anaesthetic Support Officer.

Basically theoretically a consultant anaesthetist could oversee multiple operations by having ASRO sitting at patient's head monitoring situation.
But we were trained in intubation, iv access, drugs etc. Did BATLS as well.
This was in the era when dentists could do so but legislation has since changed.

In my experience most dentists are quite happy drilling and filling.

It's only the weird ones like me who step out of the comfort zone and offer to do more!
With my military experience am quite happy in theatre and help out in bits other than just the actual surgery.

Those in hospitals are usually oral surgeons so have that role in major incidents.

Played for Berlin Stadium rugby club, 1986-89. The usual motley collection of the Bde Hq and Sig Sqn, plus the RMP, Int & Sy and a few doctors, medics from BMH Berlin etc. Best of all in a medical emergency was the British expat dentist who was somehow a member. Can’t remember his name. I blame the Berliner Kindl.

 

[Unremarkable]

Well that makes two of us. And I’m a classicist and linguist.

Theologian, but also RGN.

 

[Whey_Aye_Banzai]

I’ve just read a list of possible side effects from the new Covid vaccine!

Common:

headache
dizziness
drowsiness, fatigue, and restless sleep
thirst and sweating
tingling or numbness in hands and feet
ringing in the ears
blurred vision and eye irritation
fluid retention and ankle swelling
mild allergic reaction
abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, heartburn, diarrhea, and constipation
bladder irritation and pain, frequent urination
Overdose:
confusion and disorientation
anxiety and paranoia
anemia (low red blood cell count)
vomiting blood that may look like coffee grounds and bowel motions that look like black tar
severe allergic reaction, including swelling of the face
kidney and liver problems
seizures
coma and death
Long term side effects:
kidney and liver damage
bleeding in the stomach and bowels
increased risk of a heart attack.

Actually, that's Ibuprofen. Just take the vaccine.

(Shamelessly stolen from faceache).

 

[GDog]

I used to work with a bloke who has a degree in civil engineering. He said recently that he's been saying "for years" that THEY are going to do a Reset. Which is strange because prior to a few months ago, the only reset I was aware of was turning some electronic equipment back to it's factory settings.

When he got his current job, he asked if he could be paid in silver or gold, because he's convinced the economy is going to collapse "soon". No prize for guessing what he was told.

Just because someone has had an education doesn't stop them turning into a gibbering moonhowler.

Why didn't he just buy silver or gold with the GBP he was paid

 

[GDog]

Actually, that's Ibuprofen. Just take the vaccine.

No wonder I felt so shit after leaving fresh cases

 

[Buttmaster General]

I’ve just read a list of possible side effects from the new Covid vaccine!

Common:

headache
dizziness
drowsiness, fatigue, and restless sleep
thirst and sweating
tingling or numbness in hands and feet
ringing in the ears
blurred vision and eye irritation
fluid retention and ankle swelling
mild allergic reaction
abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, heartburn, diarrhea, and constipation
bladder irritation and pain, frequent urination
Overdose:
confusion and disorientation
anxiety and paranoia
anemia (low red blood cell count)
vomiting blood that may look like coffee grounds and bowel motions that look like black tar
severe allergic reaction, including swelling of the face
kidney and liver problems
seizures
coma and death
Long term side effects:
kidney and liver damage
bleeding in the stomach and bowels
increased risk of a heart attack.

Actually, that's Ibuprofen. Just take the vaccine.

(Shamelessly stolen from faceache).

This list covers just about any possible side effect and is copy and pasted on pretty much all drug leaflets.

I'm no medic but how can two diametrically opposed problems be down to the same drug's side effect (diarrhea, and constipation)? I sense a large amount of arse-covering going on here.

I guess the one to get stressed about is coma and death - interesting that it is not at number one on the list.

 

[Whey_Aye_Banzai]

I'm no medic but how can two diametrically opposed problems be down to the same drug's side effect (diarrhea, and constipation)? I sense a large amount of arse-covering going on here.

I'm no scientist either, but I think the explanation for this is easy enough. People's bodies aren't all the same and react in different ways to different stuff.

Maybe this one's to do with the differences in gut biome. I know this well from when I change from a high carb diet to a low carb diet and increase fat and proteins (mostly fat though); I'll invariably have a week where my shit turns to treacle and I can't trust a fart.

Once my gut biome changes to suit the new diet, I'm fan-dabby-dozy.

 

[ExAuxBalloonCorps]

I'm no scientist either, but I think the explanation for this is easy enough. People's bodies aren't all the same and react in different ways to different stuff.

Maybe this one's to do with the differences in gut biome. I know this well from when I change from a high carb diet to a low carb diet and increase fat and proteins (mostly fat though); I'll invariably have a week where my shit turns to treacle and I can't trust a fart.

Once my gut biome changes to suit the new diet, I'm fan-dabby-dozy.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Tyk]

War role.
ASRO Anaesthetic Support and Resuscitation Officer
name change but same role
CASO Combat Anaesthetic Support Officer.

Basically theoretically a consultant anaesthetist could oversee multiple operations by having ASRO sitting at patient's head monitoring situation.
But we were trained in intubation, iv access, drugs etc. Did BATLS as well.
This was in the era when dentists could do so but legislation has since changed.

In my experience most dentists are quite happy drilling and filling.

It's only the weird ones like me who step out of the comfort zone and offer to do more!
With my military experience am quite happy in theatre and help out in bits other than just the actual surgery.

Those in hospitals are usually oral surgeons so have that role in major incidents.

My old dentist (sadly retired to spend more time with his pile of cash, private only practice) who was a good mate and a damn good dentist was also on call for facial injuries, the A&E was all of 1 minute in a car or 5 mins brisk downhill run from his surgery. Maxilo-facial surgeon rings a bell, but I could be misremembering.

When it comes to the vaccine I'll have it without hesitation, my opinion of people who refuse to vaccinate their children is less than favourable. I'd cheerfully have the anti-vax crowd (not the ones who prefer to wait a while on this new one) shot. Wakefield, even though booted from the medical profession and comprehensively discredited, apparently makes a very nice living lecturing to the anti-vax morons and I hold him heavily responsible for the criminal actions of the anti-vax crowd.
Vaccines are arguably the single largest contributor to World health ahead of antibiotics by far as they have removed awful diseases like smallpox, polio should be gone, measles (which is far from the trivial illness that some people paint it), whooping cough, anthrax, TB, a whole raft of tropical nasties, tetanus and numerous others could be a thing of the past because of vaccination.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

This list covers just about any possible side effect and is copy and pasted on pretty much all drug leaflets.

I'm no medic but how can two diametrically opposed problems be down to the same drug's side effect (diarrhea, and constipation)? I sense a large amount of arse-covering going on here.

I guess the one to get stressed about is coma and death - interesting that it is not at number one on the list.

The difficulty comes in during teh stage 3 testing (and beyond using the yellow card), all adverse side effects are reported.
However proving that some of them are directly related to the drug in question is a statistical nightmare.
One paper I read suggests that with infants, you are never more than 3 days away from a significant event (unexplained crying, temperature, runny shits etc)
Thus if you give a child a vaccine you can almost guarantee such an event within a week which some will put down to the injection.

The other issue, asalluded to in a previous post is the nacebo. Just as folk will believe that a sugar pill might make them better (placebo), then then they believe that a drug (or sugar pill) makes them ill.

This is one of the reasons for the best trial being a double blind, split your subjects into two random groups, give half teh real medication and the other a placebo. You record all the side effects mentioned, if a side effect such as constipation is mentioned equally then it is nacebo effect, if however only those who take the actual drug report it, then is is a side effect. To make this even more statistical relevant, those administering the drug do not know if they have given drug or placebo.

 

[Gary Cooper]

@Gary Cooper

Another reason for increased speed in this trial was the vast numbers of volunteers who stepped forward.
(30,000 for stage 3 was a figure I heard)

In more normal times it can take a few years to recruit those sorts of numbers.

Granted.

I just had a read through the UK governments Information For UK Healthcare Professionals on the Pfizer vaccine which released by your government. The phrases No Data available and no studies conducted occur a few times.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940565/Information_for_Healthcare_Professionals_on_Pfizer_BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine.pdf

Not knowing what a RNA vaccine is I googled it and the University of Cambridge mentions the fact that not enough study has been done of such vaccines yet.

There is still a lot of work to be done before mRNA vaccines can become standard treatments, in the meantime, we need a better understanding of their potential side effects, and more evidence of their long term efficacy

Research and clinical trials: further research is needed to address technical hurdles such as vaccine stability and delivery. It is not yet certain which production method(s) are currently the best. Clinical trial data is limited – more long-term studies are needed to determine the effectiveness of RNA vaccines.

Safety: better understanding of vaccine adverse effects is needed – these can include inflammation or autoimmune reactions.

RNA vaccines: an introduction

RNA based vaccines, which are relatively quick and inexpensive to make and may be safer to use could herald more rapid control over the spread of infectious diseases, including COVID-19. This policy briefing summarises the essentials.

www.phgfoundation.org

 

[incendiarycutlery]

The phrases No Data available and no studies conducted occur a few times.

Since it’s only a few times, would you like to share what those are and if, in your considered opinion, they matter?

 

[Gary Cooper]

Since it’s only a few times, would you like to share what those are and if, in your considered opinion, they matter?

I've provided a link to a 10 page document but anyway. And I think they do matter is the context of the claims that the vaccine has been properly tested and that no shortcuts were taken in getting it into use.

Para 4.2

There are no data available on the interchangeability of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series.

Paediatric population
The safety and efficacy of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 in children under 16 years of age have not yet been established.

Para 4.4

Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressant therapy, may have a diminished immune response to the vaccine. No data are available about concomitant use of immunosuppressants.

No data are available on the use of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 in persons that have previously received a full or partial vaccine series with another COVID-19 vaccine.

Para 4.5
Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction No interaction studies have been performed.

Concomitant administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines has not been studied

Para 4.6
Fertility, pregnancy and lactation
Pregnancy
There are no or limited amount of data from the use of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2. Animal reproductive toxicity studies have not been completed. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended during pregnancy.

Breast-feeding
It is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is excreted in human milk. A risk to the newborns/infants cannot be excluded. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 should not be used during breast-feeding.

Fertility It is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 has an impact on fertility.

 

[Fang_Farrier]

I've provided a link to a 10 page document but anyway. And I think they do matter is the context of teh claims that the vaccine has been properly tested and that no shortcuts were taken in getting it into use.

Para 4.2

There are no data available on the interchangeability of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other COVID-19 vaccines to complete the vaccination series.

Paediatric population
The safety and efficacy of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 in children under 16 years of age have not yet been established.

Para 4.4

Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressant therapy, may have a diminished immune response to the vaccine. No data are available about concomitant use of immunosuppressants.

No data are available on the use of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 in persons that have previously received a full or partial vaccine series with another COVID-19 vaccine.

Para 4.5
Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction No interaction studies have been performed.

Concomitant administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines has not been studied

Para 4.6
Fertility, pregnancy and lactation
Pregnancy
There are no or limited amount of data from the use of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2. Animal reproductive toxicity studies have not been completed. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended during pregnancy.

Breast-feeding
It is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is excreted in human milk. A risk to the newborns/infants cannot be excluded. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 should not be used during breast-feeding.

Fertility It is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 has an impact on fertility.

4.2
Simple, they haven't tried different vaccines at the different injections
Ie Pfizer for 1st dose and Oxford for 2nd.

Paediatric safety
Given that most covid victims are adults, the trials have not included kids.

4.4
Immune compromised
IIRC the Oxford vaccine is a better fit for immune compromised

4.5
Interactions
Most vaccines do not have any interactions with medications.
However yellow card and black triangle scheme will be in place

4.6
Pregnant breast feeding
Would have been unusual to trial anything in this group plus by definition they are not in the most at risk age groups