WTF is it with sellers/collectors ?

[Cutaway]

Having seen a few collections now I've been browsing the net for an idea of what's out there and for how much.
Just as a general interest, I don't think it's really my thing.

Then I see groups like this.

Very badly mounted and accompanied by the bumf:

Full Size Court Mounted Medals to 23750612 Cpl K A Andrew

Campaign Service Medal : 2 Bars: South Arabia, Northern Ireland, United Nations Cyprus Medal, Silver Jubilee Medal 1977, Accumulated Campaign Medal, Golden Jubilee Medal 2002

The CSM, ACSM,& 1977 Jubilee Medal 1977 are copies, the UN Cyprus and Golden Jubilee are Genuine
The CSM & ACM are named to Andrew no unit shown

The GSM 1962 is referred to as the CSM, it, the ACSM and the Silver Jubilee are copies, yet he says the UN and Golden Jubilee gong are gen, even though it's obvious the latter isn't.
Do they sell to mongs, or is there an interest in wobbly racks ?


I know, I know, it occurred to me too as soon as I typed "racks."


Edited to add pic.

 

[BoundApprentice]

Even saying the golden jubilee is genuine is a pile of dog toffee as it’s a buy it yourself piece of tat bling my guess is the whole group is completely made up

 

[postiebear]

Mounted really badly

The golden jubilee is the un official one that cannot be worn that was privately sold by bigbury mint

Unfortunately there are newbies who are fooled


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[Crash]

Apart from my own rack of medals, I typically don’t collect them-but do accumulate them. From time to time I’ve picked up medals in charity shops often only for a couple of pounds (especially if they’re sans ribbon). I think it’s sad that these have turned up, probably from a house clearance, and very much Unloved. The bit I enjoy this researching the background: who is the recipient, what did they got up to, and what their life was like.

 

[dingerr]

Apart from my own rack of medals, I typically don’t collect them-but do accumulate them. From time to time I’ve picked up medals in charity shops often only for a couple of pounds (especially if they’re sans ribbon). I think it’s sad that these have turned up, probably from a house clearance, and very much Unloved. The bit I enjoy this researching the background: who is the recipient, what did they get up to, and what their life was like.

So you’re a voyeur then.

 

[Crash]

So you’re a voyeur then.

Yes, I stalk their graves. Also amended my post to past tense as in ‘what they got up to’ in terms of their service history.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

What a collection of utter tat: and punted out by someone who gives the rest of us medal anoraks a bad name.

On a more darker side, for some years there's an ever-changing eBay profile that seems to have a trove of unrecorded MCs, DFCs, etc. The bulk of these are either original un-named examples (but now named to a more higher profile awardee) or rather good copies, again named to notable awardees.

The intent is fraud. Pure and simple. And, unless the potential purchaser is prepared to carry out a lot of due diligence research and trace the original medal(s) through other auction houses or online sales, then a significant wedge will change hands.

 

[Cutaway]

A couple of weeks ago someone mentioned a WWII & Op Corporate group for sale, I found it here
and at first glance it seems interesting.

Group of 5 Full Size Genuine Medals

1939-45 Star, Defence Medal 1939-45, War Medal 1939-45, Korea Medal 1953 named Roy G Davis, Falklands Medal 1982 Named Roy G Davis.
Served with the Merchant Navy
Genuine Medals Korea and Falklands have been renamed
Mounted For Wear

Only reading down it says the last two have been renamed, making this group just a buckshee copy.
I now notice it's from the same seller as in the first post, Scotmint or Robert Brannagan as he's probably known to his very chuffed bank manager.

Gen question, wouldn't renaming a SAM reduce it's value ?

 

[postiebear]

Chances are it’s a copy

Also missing the UN Korea medal automatically issued with a queens Korea medal




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[FourZeroCharlie]

A couple of weeks ago someone mentioned a WWII & Op Corporate group for sale, I found it here
and at first glance it seems interesting.

Only reading down it says the last two have been renamed, making this group just a buckshee copy.
I now notice it's from the same seller as in the first post, Scotmint or Robert Brannagan as he's probably known to his very chuffed bank manager.

Gen question, wouldn't renaming a SAM reduce it's value ?

As @postiebear says, the group is a fairytale, notwithstanding the naming bollox. UN Korea could (and was) issued by itself (support service in Japan would take care of that) but the UK Korea was never issued as a single medal.

Official renaming of medals is not as rare as you might think-in fact, it was quite common up to and including WWI, though usually encountered for 19th Century medals: with men leaving the RN or Army, they usually dropped out of sight, unless awarded a pension. Then, once their particular campaign had been granted a campaign medal, the various staffs would need to try and locate the chap and forward it to him. Those returned or otherwise unissued would be lightly 'skimmed' around the rim and renamed.

Sometimes you will come across these medals with 'ghost naming' on the rim: they are not necessarily hooky.

. . . which brings me to the SAM82: it's a wrong 'un all day long.

 

[Cutaway]

Chances are it’s a copy

Can't be, Mr Brannagan says it's genuine.

Also missing the UN Korea medal automatically issued with a queens Korea medal

As @postiebear says, the group is a fairytale, notwithstanding the naming bollox. UN Korea could (and was) issued by itself (support service in Japan would take care of that) but the UK Korea was never issued as a single medal.

I thought he'd have a UN Korea too, but the criteria of the two aren't the same.
Here's some bumf from korean-war-medals.com

Awarded to all members of land, sea or air forces of quasi-military units, or members of the armed forces of Korea, despatched to Korea or adjacent areas for service on behalf of the United Nations by states participating in the UN action in Korea. There was no restriction as to rank, sex or nationality, but all awards were subject to approval by the national governments concerned. Posthumous awards were authorised. No privileges were bestowed by this medal. The period of service for eligibility of the medal is given as thirty but one day's service under United Nations command in Korea or the adjacent areas, which included Japan and Okinawa, between27June 1950 and 27 July 1953.

And my apologies for mentioning the Wiki, but here's their take for today on the criteria:

The United Nations Service Medal (Korea) is awarded to any military service member, of an Armed Force allied with South Korea, who participated in the defense of South Korea from North Korea between the dates of June 27, 1950 and July 27, 1954. The military forces of the Netherlands are awarded the medal for service to January 1, 1955, while the armed forces of Thailand and Sweden grant the award to July 27, 1955.

International Red Cross personnel engaged for service during the war with any United Nations relief team in Korea were not eligible for the medal.

The ultimate award authority of the United Nations Service Medal is United Nations Commander-in-Chief of military forces in Korea. Most countries consider the United Nations Service Medal an automatic decoration, if some other Korean service award was bestowed, and generally award the medal without requesting permission through United Nations channels. For instance, in the United States Armed Forces, any service member awarded the Korean Service Medal is automatically granted the United Nations Service Medal.

These two plus all the other sites I've looked at mention military forces, and even with the best will in the world the Merchant Navy won't even qualify as a "quasi-military" unit or force.
The RFA possibly, but even that's a push.

. . . which brings me to the SAM82: it's a wrong 'un all day long.

You can't mean that !
It's from a reputable dealer.

 

[FourZeroCharlie]

@Cutaway - sadly, the only genuine medals in that group are (probably) the 39-45 Star, DM and WM.

 

[postiebear]

For the MN to get the Korea medal they were operating under the mod so also entitled to UN Korea as everyone who received the queens Korea medal automatically were awarded the UN Korea



This is why the MN did not qualify for the Vietnam medal


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[Effendi]

I went through a phase of hoovering up variants of all the NATO member para wings and jump insignia - still pick up the odd one if it is a new variant, or I have not got it. You would be surprised, or maybe not, at the tat which is out there that some collectors are convinced, or are trying to pass off as, the genuine awarded and issued article.

 

[Cutaway]

@Cutaway - sadly, the only genuine medals in that group are (probably) the 39-45 Star, DM and WM.

Perhaps someone should write and tell Mr Brannagan so he can take it off the market, I'm sure he wouldn't want anyone to buy it thinking it's gen.

 

[Cutaway]

For the MN to get the Korea medal they were operating under the mod so also entitled to UN Korea as everyone who received the queens Korea medal automatically were awarded the UN Korea



This is why the MN did not qualify for the Vietnam medal

I've searched for something official along those lines, do you have a link for that ?

 

[postiebear]

Check the criteria for the merchant navy veterans badge

It’s only issued to merchant seaman raking part in some campaigns (all of which were issued a medal)

Regards

James


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[Cutaway]

Check the criteria for the merchant navy veterans badge

It’s only issued to merchant seaman raking part in some campaigns (all of which were issued a medal)

Regards

James

BTSIDIGTTS.
If it's from Veterans Badge - The Merchant Navy Association then it's just the Vets badge, and that came into being this millennium.
As far as I can ascertain the criteria for the UN gong didn't include merchant seamen back then.

 

[postiebear]

For merchant navy to qualify for medals they need to be operating under the defence force act

The veterans badge for merchant navy also is for merchant seaman operating under the defence force act

All recipients of the queens Korea medal were issued the UN Korea it was not issued separate

The UN Korea medal could be issued without the queens medal

Therefore if a merchant seaman was issued the queens Korea medal he was automatically issued the UN korea


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[Cutaway]

All recipients of the queens Korea medal were issued the UN Korea it was not issued separate

Yeah that's what I'd heard, but it was an oke with far more knowledge on the subject than I who told me it wasn't quite that clear cut.
Since then I've been trying to find some official bumf from the UN that merchantile marine also qualified, and so far I've turned up vokoll.