WO2 badges

#1
There are (at least) a couple of WO2 badges available to be worn. With and without laurel leaves. Can anyone explain who is entitled to wear what and why? A quote from a publication (JSPs etc) would also be appreciated as a bonus.

Many thanks.
 
#3
Knocker, you seem to be rather clued up on this sort of thing: where did the term "Warrant Officer" come from and what was its original meaning?

MsG
 
#4
In the British Army, there are two warrant ranks, Warrant Officer Class 2 (WO2) and Warrant Officer Class 1 (WO1), which is the senior of the two. It used to be more common to refer to these ranks as WOII and WOI (using Roman instead of Arabic numerals). Warrant Officer 1st Class or 2nd Class is incorrect. The rank immediately below WO2 is Staff Sergeant.

Every warrant officer has an appointment, and is usually referred to by his appointment rather than by his rank.

Warrant officers were generally introduced throughout the British Army under Army Order 70 of 1915, although Regimental Sergeant Majors and a few other appointments (beginning in 1879, when Conductors of Stores and Supplies were warranted), had been warranted before that time. These earlier warranted appointments, and some others, became WOIs. The appointments that were designated WOIIs had previously been senior sergeants.

WO1s wear a royal coat of arms on the lower sleeve, which may be surrounded by a wreath depending on appointment. Appointments held by WO1s include:

Academy Sergeant Major (AcSM)
Accountant Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Armament Sergeant Major
Armourer Sergeant Major
Artificer Sergeant Major (ASM)
Bandmaster (BM)
Bugle Major
Clerk of Works Sergeant Major
Conductor (Cdr)
Draughtsman Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Drum Major
Farrier Corporal Major
Farrier Sergeant Major
Foreman of Signals (FofS)
Foreman of Works Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Garrison Sergeant Major (GSM)
Lithographer Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Master Gunner 1st Class
Master Gunner 2nd Class
Orderly Room Sergeant Major (ORSM)
Pipe Major
Regimental Corporal Major (RCM)
Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM)
Royal Artillery Sergeant Major
Saddler Sergeant Major
Schoolmaster 1st Class (obsolete)
Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Sergeant Major Instructor (SMI)
Staff Sergeant Major (SSM)
Staff Sergeant Major 1st Class (obsolete)
Supervisor (Information Systems) (Supvr (IS))
Supervisor (Radio) (Supvr (R))
Sub-Conductor (obsolete)
Superintending Clerk
Surveyor Sergeant Major
Trumpet Major
Yeoman of Signals (YofS)
WO2s wear a crown on the lower sleeve, surrounded by a wreath for Quartermaster Sergeants (for all WOIIs from 1938 to 1947). Appointments held by WO2s include:

Armament Quartermaster Sergeant
Armourer Quartermaster Sergeant
Artificer Quartermaster Sergeant (AQMS)
Band Corporal Major (BCM)
Band Sergeant Major (BSM)
Battery Sergeant Major (BSM)
Bugle Major
Clerk of Works Quartermaster Sergeant
Company Sergeant Major (CSM)
Draughtsman Quartermaster Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
Drum Major
Engineer Clerk Quartermaster Sergeant
Farrier Quartermaster Sergeant
Foreman of Signals (FofS)
Foreman of Works Quartermaster Sergeant (obsolete)
Garrison Quartermaster Sergeant
Lithographer Quartermaster Sergeant (obsolete)
Master Gunner 3rd Class
Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant (ORQMS)
Pipe Major
Quartermaster Sergeant Instructor (QMSI)
Regimental Quartermaster Corporal (RQMC)
Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (RQMS)
Saddler Quartermaster Sergeant
Squadron Corporal Major (SCM)
Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM)
Staff Quartermaster Sergeant
Supervisor (Information Systems) (Supvr (IS))
Supervisor (Radio) (Supvr (R))
Surveyor Quartermaster Sergeant
Technical Quartermaster Sergeant (TQMS)
Troop Sergeant Major (TSM)
Trumpet Major
Yeoman of Signals (YofS)
From 1938, there was also a rank of Warrant Officer Class III (WOIII). The only appointments held by this rank were Platoon Sergeant Major, Troop Sergeant Major and Section Sergeant Major. The WOIII wore a crown on his lower sleeve (which is why all WOIIs switched to a crown in a wreath during this period). The rank was placed in suspension in 1940 and no new appointments were made, but it was never officially abolished.

WOs are officially designated using their rank and appointment. For instance, WO2 (CSM) Smith or WO1 (BM) Jones. However, they would usually be referred to as "CSM Smith" and "Bandmaster Jones". WO2s holding Sergeant Major or Corporal Major appointments are often referred to as the "Sergeant Major" or the "Corporal Major", but WO1s are only ever referred to using their full appointment or its abbreviation (the "RSM" or the "Garrison Sergeant Major", for instance).

How warrant officers are addressed depends, as does much else in the British Army, on the traditions of their regiments or corps. However, there are some general rules of thumb:

WO1s are usually addressed as "Mr [surname]" by officers and by their peers, and as "sir" or "Mr [surname], sir" by their subordinates (for female WO1s, "Mrs or Miss [surname]", "ma'am", and "Mrs or Miss [surname], ma'am", respectively);
an RSM's Commanding Officer, and he alone, has the privilege of addressing him as "RSM"; all others use the normal form of address for WO1s;
WO2s are commonly addressed as "Sergeant Major", "Corporal Major" or "Q" (for Quartermaster Sergeants) as appropriate (or as "sir" or "ma'am").
The four most senior warrant officer appointments in the British Army are generally considered to be, in descending order of seniority:

Conductor, Royal Logistic Corps
Royal Artillery Sergeant Major, Royal Artillery
Academy Sergeant Major, Royal Military Academy Sandhurst
Garrison Sergeant Major, London District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#United_Kingdom
 
#5
I've been out yonks now and that's the first time I've really understood what's what with Warrant Officers.
Thanks for taking the time, Knocker.

MsG
 
#6
Bugsy7 said:
I've been out yonks now and that's the first time I've really understood what's what with Warrant Officers.
Thanks for taking the time, Knocker.

MsG
pleasure :D :D :D :D
 
#7
A_Knocker_Till_The_End said:
In the British Army, there are two warrant ranks, Warrant Officer Class 2 (WO2) and Warrant Officer Class 1 (WO1), which is the senior of the two. It used to be more common to refer to these ranks as WOII and WOI (using Roman instead of Arabic numerals). Warrant Officer 1st Class or 2nd Class is incorrect. The rank immediately below WO2 is Staff Sergeant.

Every warrant officer has an appointment, and is usually referred to by his appointment rather than by his rank.

Warrant officers were generally introduced throughout the British Army under Army Order 70 of 1915, although Regimental Sergeant Majors and a few other appointments (beginning in 1879, when Conductors of Stores and Supplies were warranted), had been warranted before that time. These earlier warranted appointments, and some others, became WOIs. The appointments that were designated WOIIs had previously been senior sergeants.

WO1s wear a royal coat of arms on the lower sleeve, which may be surrounded by a wreath depending on appointment. Appointments held by WO1s include:

Academy Sergeant Major (AcSM)
Accountant Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Armament Sergeant Major
Armourer Sergeant Major
Artificer Sergeant Major (ASM)
Bandmaster (BM)
Bugle Major
Clerk of Works Sergeant Major
Conductor (Cdr)
Draughtsman Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Drum Major
Farrier Corporal Major
Farrier Sergeant Major
Foreman of Signals (FofS)
Foreman of Works Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Garrison Sergeant Major (GSM)
Lithographer Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Master Gunner 1st Class
Master Gunner 2nd Class
Orderly Room Sergeant Major (ORSM)
Pipe Major
Regimental Corporal Major (RCM)
Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM)
Royal Artillery Sergeant Major
Saddler Sergeant Major
Schoolmaster 1st Class (obsolete)
Sergeant Major (obsolete)
Sergeant Major Instructor (SMI)
Staff Sergeant Major (SSM)
Staff Sergeant Major 1st Class (obsolete)
Supervisor (Information Systems) (Supvr (IS))
Supervisor (Radio) (Supvr (R))
Sub-Conductor (obsolete)
Superintending Clerk
Surveyor Sergeant Major
Trumpet Major
Yeoman of Signals (YofS)
WO2s wear a crown on the lower sleeve, surrounded by a wreath for Quartermaster Sergeants (for all WOIIs from 1938 to 1947). Appointments held by WO2s include:

Armament Quartermaster Sergeant
Armourer Quartermaster Sergeant
Artificer Quartermaster Sergeant (AQMS)
Band Corporal Major (BCM)
Band Sergeant Major (BSM)
Battery Sergeant Major (BSM)
Bugle Major
Clerk of Works Quartermaster Sergeant
Company Sergeant Major (CSM)
Draughtsman Quartermaster Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
Drum Major
Engineer Clerk Quartermaster Sergeant
Farrier Quartermaster Sergeant
Foreman of Signals (FofS)
Foreman of Works Quartermaster Sergeant (obsolete)
Garrison Quartermaster Sergeant
Lithographer Quartermaster Sergeant (obsolete)
Master Gunner 3rd Class
Orderly Room Quartermaster Sergeant (ORQMS)
Pipe Major
Quartermaster Sergeant Instructor (QMSI)
Regimental Quartermaster Corporal (RQMC)
Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (RQMS)
Saddler Quartermaster Sergeant
Squadron Corporal Major (SCM)
Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM)
Staff Quartermaster Sergeant
Supervisor (Information Systems) (Supvr (IS))
Supervisor (Radio) (Supvr (R))
Surveyor Quartermaster Sergeant
Technical Quartermaster Sergeant (TQMS)
Troop Sergeant Major (TSM)
Trumpet Major
Yeoman of Signals (YofS)
From 1938, there was also a rank of Warrant Officer Class III (WOIII). The only appointments held by this rank were Platoon Sergeant Major, Troop Sergeant Major and Section Sergeant Major. The WOIII wore a crown on his lower sleeve (which is why all WOIIs switched to a crown in a wreath during this period). The rank was placed in suspension in 1940 and no new appointments were made, but it was never officially abolished.

WOs are officially designated using their rank and appointment. For instance, WO2 (CSM) Smith or WO1 (BM) Jones. However, they would usually be referred to as "CSM Smith" and "Bandmaster Jones". WO2s holding Sergeant Major or Corporal Major appointments are often referred to as the "Sergeant Major" or the "Corporal Major", but WO1s are only ever referred to using their full appointment or its abbreviation (the "RSM" or the "Garrison Sergeant Major", for instance).

How warrant officers are addressed depends, as does much else in the British Army, on the traditions of their regiments or corps. However, there are some general rules of thumb:

WO1s are usually addressed as "Mr [surname]" by officers and by their peers, and as "sir" or "Mr [surname], sir" by their subordinates (for female WO1s, "Mrs or Miss [surname]", "ma'am", and "Mrs or Miss [surname], ma'am", respectively);
an RSM's Commanding Officer, and he alone, has the privilege of addressing him as "RSM"; all others use the normal form of address for WO1s;
WO2s are commonly addressed as "Sergeant Major", "Corporal Major" or "Q" (for Quartermaster Sergeants) as appropriate (or as "sir" or "ma'am").
The four most senior warrant officer appointments in the British Army are generally considered to be, in descending order of seniority:

Conductor, Royal Logistic Corps
Royal Artillery Sergeant Major, Royal Artillery
Academy Sergeant Major, Royal Military Academy Sandhurst
Garrison Sergeant Major, London District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#United_Kingdom
I appreciate that this is wikipedia content, but are you able to elaborate upon which corps or regiment to which this appies? (I appreciate that this list isn't conclusive, but I noticed a lack of an RCWO on the list, which is common to more units in the army than some of those listed here).
 
#10
Here we go again.....

Still polishing your Mickey Mouse "commission" from the mong monkey in the White House?

Throbber.
 
#11
Thanks for the explanation. I was a WO2 for 9 years (in the RCT, later the RLC), during RCT times, only the RQMS wore a crown with a wreath and of all the WO2's, only the Squadron Sgt Major had an appointment - the rest of us wore the same badge as the SSM, but we had no appointment.

I understand that the RLC have now changed this (but it happened after I left).
 
#12
Chief_Two said:
A_Knocker_Till_The_End said:
http://www.army.mod.uk/qrl/recruiting/career/warrant_officer_class_2.htm
'Mr' or 'Sir' on this side of 'the Pond' for WOs too ![/

CJ, we realise this is a burning issue with you so HM Queen Elizabeth II asked me to present you a special US Warrant on behalf of the United Kingdom and Commonwealth in her absense. HM apologises for not being able to present it to you personally.

Here it comes now...... hold your hand out CJ.........

[img]http://smartpei.typepad.com/robert_patersons_weblog/images/dogpoo.jpg
 
#13
doomandgloom is Herrenbloke after reading the book "How to be Popular with People" by Dr Harold Shipman.

MsG
 

oldbaldy

LE
Moderator
#14
A_Knocker_Till_The_End said:
WO1s wear a royal coat of arms on the lower sleeve....


WO2s wear a crown on the lower sleeve...
Don't forget that an RSM of a Guards Battalion plus the Academy Sergeant Major & the GSM Londist wear the Tate & Lyle bage on the upper arm.
And CSMs in the Guards wear their badge on the upper arm when in Home Service Clothing. (If it is still called that!). (Red tunics).
 
#16
In the RAMC all W02's wear their crown in a wreath EXCEPT the CSM who wears the crown on his sleeve. :wink:
 
#17
I would be grateful if Knocker or someone else could confirm.

I was always told that an Officer held the monarch's commission to command her subjects. Typically a member of the aristocracy was given a commission (i.e. given permission) to raise a body of troops presumably from the area they were lord of, and that in return for equipping them at their own expense were then conferred the right to lead them. Since they paid for the uniforms (hence the different units being different), the lord held the monarchs commission until the lord died.

Warrant Officers were required to conduct the functions that were considered unglamorous for a lord (commissariat etc), but had a great deal of responsibility and required a good deal of education. They were therefore granted the monarch's warrant (like a Police Officer) to command the monarch's subjects whilst they were in THAT job. Once they finished they were no longer allowed to command.

This is why Officers (who held a commission are 'Col, Brigadier etc' Ret'd) and WO's are not.

Is that all balderdash or is it basically right? I would love to know.
 
#19
intli said:
In the RAMC all W02's wear their crown in a wreath EXCEPT the CSM who wears the crown on his sleeve. :wink:

when i was attached to 34 fd hosp i called there badge, Q as he had the wreath badge on and he said it was a medic thing but then again it was Ri***rs :x
 
#20
gung_hobo said:
I would be grateful if Knocker or someone else could confirm.

I was always told that an Officer held the monarch's commission to command her subjects. Typically a member of the aristocracy was given a commission (i.e. given permission) to raise a body of troops presumably from the area they were lord of, and that in return for equipping them at their own expense were then conferred the right to lead them. Since they paid for the uniforms (hence the different units being different), the lord held the monarchs commission until the lord died.

Warrant Officers were required to conduct the functions that were considered unglamorous for a lord (commissariat etc), but had a great deal of responsibility and required a good deal of education. They were therefore granted the monarch's warrant (like a Police Officer) to command the monarch's subjects whilst they were in THAT job. Once they finished they were no longer allowed to command.

This is why Officers (who held a commission are 'Col, Brigadier etc' Ret'd) and WO's are not.

Is that all balderdash or is it basically right? I would love to know.
Ref - http://www.sandhurst.mod.uk/h...story5.htm

Until 1870, the usual way for an officer of the cavalry or infantry to obtain his commission was by purchase. A new candidate had to produce evidence of having had "the education of a gentleman", to obtain the approval of his regimental colonel, and to produce a substantial sum which was both proof of his standing in society and a bond for good behaviour. When a promotion vacancy occurred, the senior officer of the immediate lower rank in the same regiment had the first claim to be promoted, subject to being able to produce the as appropriate sum laid down by Parliament for the rank in question. Promotion to colonel and above was by seniority without purchase. Staff appointments, which carried promotion, were by selection, not purchase, but an officer reverted to his regimental (normally purchased) rank on expiry of tenure. When an officer left the Army, the price of his last commission was refunded, thus realising a large capital sum for investment elsewhere. The system was subject to abuse, as very rich men could pay their juniors not to take up their right to promotion, but had the advantage of allowing wealthy officers to obtain command of a regiment in their twenties, while at the peak of their fitness and energy. By contrast, in the Commissariat & Ordnance corps, where promotion was by seniority, it was not uncommon to find officers in their forties still serving as subalterns. The greatest weakness of the purchase system was its reliance on officers learning their duties by experience after appointment, rather than by training prior to it.

Senior soldiers were called 'Sargent Majors' and appounted by the regimental colonal, they did not start to receive Royal Warrant's until 1879. Company Sargent Majors were classed as 1st Class Staff Sargent's until Warrant Officer Class Two were introduced in 1915. Existing classes of Warrant Officers then became WOI's
 

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