Wives and the moral issue of killing

#1
So here's the scenario - I'm joining soon (application all processed, everything successful, am waiting for The Call to start next course), my wife is highly supportive of what I'm doing because it's what I've always dreamed of (being an Army pilot), but she doesn't quite get the rest of the whole "Force" part of "Defence Force" thing.

She doesn't think killing is justified ... ever. Free text convo follows:

HER - I don't see why you have to join the Army to do this, why don't you just take out a loan and get your licence, then you can fly and you don't have to kill anyone

ME - I'm joining the Army because I believe in helping people who can't help themselves, and I don't like bullies.

HER - but I don't want you to kill anyone, I don't think it's right

ME - what about self-defence?

HER - no, not even then - you should be able to talk to the other person and sort it out peacefully

ME - so if someone's coming at you with a gun, and you had a gun ...

HER - I wouldn't have a gun!

ME - ... if a gun HAPPENED :roll: to be right next to you, are you saying you wouldn't pick it up and defend yourself?

HER - I think I would be able to talk to the other person and sort it out without resorting to violence?

ME - what if you don't speak that person's language and they don't give a sh* tabout you - you're just there and they feel like popping you?

HER - I wouldn't have got myself in that situation to start with.

ME - okay, okay, what if you stop at a petrol station, and suddenly there are robbers who are not just robbing but shooting everyone - you couldn't have avoided that situation, and yet you are next, but there's a dead cop next to you with a gun in his belt.

HER - no, I still think I'd find another way

ME - what if the guy points the gun at your child and is about to pull the trigger?

HER - that's different, I'd probably kill him - nobody threatens my children. If I couldn't do anything else I'd jump in front of them and try to protect them.

ME - that's different? Okay, what if it's someone else's children?

HER - I don't know, probably not - it wouldn't matter as much to me

< I married this woman?> 8O

ME - it wouldn't MATTER to you? Wouldn't MATTER? :x <tries to calm down> Dear God .... <deep breath, 2, 3, 4> okay, see this is why I want to join the Army, doing something I am probably good at - I don't like bullies, and if someone out there is threatening someone who can't defend themselves, or shouldn't have to defend themselves, then I feel a basic human need to protect that person. I WILL NOT stand idly by and allow someone to kill innocent people if I can do ANYTHING about it, and if that means going overseas and stopping some a$$hole from killing someone ELSE'S children, someone ELSE'S wife, mother, whatever, then I would feel proud of having the chance to help them in that way.

HER - I think you should leave the overseas stuff to the diplomats, they should negotiate something.

ME - what about all the people who are getting killed while the diplomats chat?

HER - you can't do anything about that, so why worry?

ME - why WORRY? WHY WORRY? <tries to calm down> Those people think we Westerners are STUPID, they LAUGH at our inability to act, and if you give them any more time, they will be quite happy to go on murdering, killing and destroying as long as possible, until they are STOPPED, and the only thing they will respond to in the short term is looking down the barrel of a very large GUN. If their own life is on the line, they MIGHT stop.

HER - well, I think the Army should just go in and assassinate the leaders who are doing those things

ME - oh, so that sort of killing is okay?

HER - it would be so much quicker, and maybe the rest of them would stop fighting if their crazy leader wasn't there any more

ME - <mouth agape>

ME - that's usually what the aim is anyway, is to neutralise the leader, like Saddam Hussein - the US spent months trying to get him without success. And Osama Bin Laden, they've been looking for him for ages, the other stuff will just keep going on around any of those operations. Besides, usually the only thing that does is put someone else in power who may be as bad or worse than the other ... just look at the Somalia debacle

HER - well then we could help them to understand how to get along with each other

ME - and we would do that by .... ?

HER - well, we could go in and teach them

ME - and by "go in" you mean .... "occupy", and therefore you are supportive of what we're doing in Iraq?

HER - Iraq is different, we shouldn't be there

ME - so what should we do now?

HER - leave them alone

ME - to keep killing innocent people

HER - I just don't think WE should be killing anyone - it's just a mindless cycle

------

:roll: A bit like that whole bloody conversation - a mindless cycle. Do any of you have any frustrations like this that you've worked out a good way of handling?
 
#2
If i was you mate i would file for divorce now, as when your on ops, you can just see her going to anti war marchs and such (this is a great thing to enhance your career), the resentment is there already that you wish to join the forces, and it will only grow. self self self , if its nothing immediate to her then its doesnt exist kind of thing.

Clearly she doesnt have a clue about the real world. Its not about killing its about providing humitarion aid to those whom are desperate, it means protecting the food convoys to allow thousands to eat, and not have some dictator control people by fear and starvation.

In gulf war 1 a loads of brits went over to iraq to say they dont support the war, etc.., sadam made them into part of a human shield on his military sites to stop the allies neutralising them.

think its time she should get with the programme and start supporting you in your choice, or she should get out the way!
 
#3
I agree with Sabre .. divorce the selfish narrow minded thing now.She doesn't want to know unless it directly affects her.

The one question you must ask yourself if you want a flourishing career in the Army, could you let her lose in the mess during a mess dinner?

J
 
#4
Its a great single mans army-dump her move on,these type of people want all the dirty work done for them while bleating on that its immoral.
 
#5
My fella's in the RMR, and I'm in the process of joining the TA. Blokey was mobilised for Iraq yesterday, and we had a very emotional goodbye, both really upset that we'll be apart for so many months etc.

But even if i could ask him to stay, i wouldn't (he nearly got to go on a previous deployment, and i gave him loads of encouragement, but they didn't take him because he had just finished uni and they wanted him to be available in case he had any re-sits, hence he's off now instead).

The most important thing with us is that while it's really crap to be apart, i know what it means to him, and i know that i'm gonna be there for him when he comes home to me. And i know that when i get to the stage where i can go, he will do the same for me.

I'm not gonna pass judgement on your wife, and i'd imagine a fair bit of what she's saying is out of fear of what could happen to you etc, but if this is so important to you (and it sounds like it is) and she can't understand that and be supportive (and give her a chance, it's a big thing to come to grips with) then you may just not be right for each other.
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
Bin her, she is immature.

Does she eat lentils?

Ask yourself what really attracted you to her in the first place? Was it that she has a cracking body and lets you do rude things to it? I don't see anything other than physical lust behind this.
 
#7
Suggest to your wife that she reads through some of these. (Click Case Information sheets on the left-hand side).

Edmund Burke's belief that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" is as valid today as it was when he wrote it. It is a sad truth that violent people only understand violence - diplomacy is wasted. Pacifism is generally an ideal reserved for those who live within the comfort of peace and security provided by "rough men [who] stand ready to do violence on their behalf." (Orwell)

There are numerous personal testimonies from survivors of the Holocaust, the Rwandan ethnic cleansing massacres as well as The Balkans in books and online - if she can read any of those without feeling a mixture of nausea, disbelief, anger and desperate sadness then she is a less-feeling woman than I.

No-one will argue that war is not 'nasty'. It is normally employed as a last resort along the Clauswitzian principle of "war being a continuation of policy by other means" and as such is usually a reaction to an ongoing situation, but even on the occasions where it might be pre-emptive, if the action taken ultimately saves significantly more "good" lives than it takes (the cold words “collateral damage” that make the peaceniks convulse), I would argue that it is a necessary evil.

Your wife has the luxury of being able to argue this as a philosophical exercise – she really should be grateful that she will probably never need to put her life where her mouth is.
 
#8
Dozy, what an excellent response.

GTI, I think you may need to test and adjust your position. Sounds to me as though you as a couple are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. The tree hugging attitude she has will worsen the more you become involved. Everytime there is a skirmish, a riot or some rag head gets his jaw bone rocked, expect a lengthy debate on the rights and wrongs of your job. If she wants to be with you, she needs to support 100%, you'll need it. If this isn't possible, throw the smoke now and tell her to bug out!
 
#9
I think it is excellent that she has a totally different opinion to you with regards to using force. Its one of the reasons we have an army so people like your good wife will never need to pick up a gun and defend herself and children against militia's and the like.

Just have a laugh with her, tell her 'let's hope she isn't ever in that situation and if she was, she may surpirse herself'.
 
#10
Dozy for prime minster :) More sense the arrse Blair :p

J
 
#11
Or B tell her you just going to fly recce choppers and guns /missles are just for show and are only ever used to scare people
sounds divorced from reality to buy that one :lol: .
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#12
GettingToIt, how long have you been married ?

I can understand your exasperation at the "logic" employed by your missus in the discourse above, but are you really trying to understand her ?
You're on a hiding to nothing, her side of the conversation, is philosophically Zen and therefore devoid of realism.
There is no understanding her point of view when applied to the world as it exists.
Mark my words, it'll all end in tears. (Not neccessarily hers.)

Mag her, you'll have much a easier life & when you become a pilot you'll have hordes of women & door-gunners just begging for you to hang out the back of them.






This message is brought to you courtesy of CMGC.
 
#13
Jeeze I thought this was going to be about whether or not it was right to slot the missus.

Bit harsh, but if she was really out of order?

Oh well.

I am going to have to sack my typist!!
 
#14
It is going to be amusing to watch the meek try and hold on to the earth when they eventually inherit it.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#15
Dizz said:
My fella's in the RMR, and I'm in the process of joining the TA. Blokey was mobilised for Iraq yesterday, and we had a very emotional goodbye, both really upset that we'll be apart for so many months etc.

...
Is that the new phrase for filthy acrobatic monkey sex ?
 
#16
I'm with zulu, thought you might just be after the go ahead to brass the old lady up.

I'm not into the whole moral thing, but I remember one bloke who raised a few laughs in Camp Commando by the Mutla Ridge in Kuwait. He did all his phys right by the american sector wearing a "Don't attack Iraq" t-shirt. In an ironic sense, one must presume...
 
#17
My other half used to be equally "Notting Hill" about these issues until I took her into an ethnic pub near the cenre of Glasgow to kill some time. Cue pissed up crowd of neds who decide she is just the person to resolve a debate they were having. To cut a long story short the banter was fairly amusing if very incoherent and half an hour later after they had bought me a pint we went on our way.

I hadn't realised, but she was nearly catatonic with fear, she had never met a group of fully grown retards, let alone a pissed up bunch. She couldn't understand how she had reached her mid thirties and had no idea that this sort of person existed. Attitudes chaged dramatically after that.

Take you bird to the nearest sink estate and into the back bar of the cheapest dive for a bit of the "banter", see how many she manages to convince of her views.
 
#18
Thanks for the input, from both sides.

Divorce isn't an option - we've been married for over 10 years and have kids. Other than this we generally have an okay relationship - not exactly Brady Bunch but okay.

Apparently I don't understand her, our priorities are different, and I'm the cad. I've been "told a trillion times" what I do wrong, and she won't talk to me anymore to express what she feels. She's happy to just stew on things. :roll:

I apparently don't care about her, I just do my own thing and live "like a single person". Now let's put some perspective in here ... she's just been sick for a full week, in which she hardly got out of bed, and I did EVERYTHING - kids breakfasts, school lunches, drop them off, pick them up, stayed home from work with one sick kid plus sick wife one day, went grocery shopping, washed the clothes, hung them out, washed the dishes, bathed the kids, put them in their pyjamas, put them to bed, vacuumed the floors, cleaned up the dog poo, cleaned the toilets .... EVERYTHING, and I haven't done any exercise this last week because I've been too busy with all the other stuff. Don't any rabid left wing feminazis jump on that - what I'm saying is that I have given up what is important to me (exercise) in order to fulfil ALL the household duties, not just the household duties I NORMALLY do, right?

She's feeling better this morning, so the first question I ask her is "are you okay to get the kids ready, or do you want me to do it?" She says, "I'm okay, you go ahead." So I spend the next 20 minutes ironing my clothes, getting my gear together - now, I usually jog to work, then get showered and changed at work. This morning, I got into my jogging gear but planned to just go to work and shower and change without the run. SHE starts snapping at me, getting unhappy, and I say "what's wrong". "Well I'M NOT WELL, and I'M STRUGGLING, and YOU'RE happily doing your OWN THING like NOTHING'S WRONG". "But you said ..." "Just go to work, do your normal thing". Okay, fine, so off I go. Get back after work, she's STILL p1ssed off because I "MADE her take the kids to school when she WASN'T WELL". I would have been DELIGHTED to do all that for her, I told her, all you had to do was ASK. "I shouldn't have to ask, this is the whole problem, you just don't get it" ... and she says SHE doesn't understand ME!

I suggested to her tonight that this is normal, that men and women DON'T always understand each other, that's why that bloody Mars & Venus guy made so much money, and she tells me not to try to shift the responsibility for me being an a$$ onto her because I think she can't accept that we're different. WHAT THE ...

I'm trying not to let this get to me too much. I've never vented this much in such a public forum, and I don't want to get too carried away. I am capable of working through this, we've done it before, maybe it's the antibiotics and codeine she's been taking. I think I'm kidding myself.

Another conversation I remember now is when we were watching some thing on TV about some death squad running around killing people in Albania or something. I look at her and she's a bit teary, and I put my arm around her and say "It's okay, I feel angry about it too". She turns to me and says, "No, I'm upset because I think you'll have to kill people like they're doing, and I don't know how I'll be able to face you if you tell me you've killed someone".

:( Dear God. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Yes, her responses are based on fear. She has NO understanding of Army people. We had a little tour around a base recently with an officer who knows my dad, and she came away saying "well he seemed normal, not what I expected at all" ... "what do you mean, 'normal'?" .... "you know, balanced - Army people aren't balanced". 8O "why do you say that, what makes them 'not balanced'?" ... "every time I look at someone in uniform, I just think they want to kill people".... 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

It was a very quiet car ride home.

Oh, and I'd be the type to wear that "don't attack Iraq" shirt just for the wind-up value. Yanks ... [shudder]
 

napier

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
#19
If you don't leave her now, It'll end later (badly - either divorce or murder). I don't mean to get personal, but how could you marry someone so utterly stupid and lazy? There is no way that your career could survive if she is exposed to your workmates/bosses. Sorry mate, you really f*cked up marrying that one.
 
#20
Sounds to me like you've got 2 issues in your marriage at the moment:

1. She's picking fights and it probably isn't about the issues that are being 'discussed'. There's some underlying resentment there - whether it's a result of you deciding to join the army or something else entirely, you need to sit her down and tell her to stop looking for opportunities to attack.

2. Most of the uber-liberal, tree-hugging, uni infesting lentil munchers (I went and I saw!) are too busy enjoying the freedom of a democratic society to preach their moans about violence forgetting that only 60 years ago that very democracy was defended with violence and the loss of many good men and women!

Unfortunately when violence is the currency of certain individuals, talk is cheap! Ask her to look at hostage situations that have disolved because words weren't enough - and ask her to apply this to her unrealistic pacifism, but it seems that she won't accept responsibility for anything that exists out of her own little bubble of safety...
 
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