Will the government car emissions proposals affect your next car purchase .....

If all new cars must have zero emissions by 2035 will that affect your next car purchase choice ?

  • Nope I`m not worried, depreciation wont change from what it is now.

  • Yes , I`m looking at electric cars already.

  • I run old bangers and couldn`t give a fcuk.

  • I`ll be dead by 2035 so dont care.

  • Fcuk the planet show me the V8 .


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I'm looking at a hybrid for the next company car.
All electric won't work for me as the distances I have to travel and many many of these places are presently nowhere near a sodding charging point. I suppose I could carry my generator on a trailer (need the car boot for equipment).
Think I may go and buy a hundred diesel generator sets and hire them out in rural areas ...
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As big an issue is any expansion in the national grid system, planning would be hard pushed to allow any large pylons lines through as everything not built on seems to be an AONB these days. Its the major limit with new Nuclear - it needs some where to plug into and the old Coal fired stations at the end of existing lines that haven't been converted to biomass aren't in the remote places peeps like their reactors
I think the Government must have subcontracted the sums to Dianne Abbott. We are told that we will have to remove gas boilers from our homes and transition to electric vehicles for travel, and yet I see no evidence of any planning for a commensurate increase in either generating capacity or the required expansion of the transmission network.
It will hit a crunch point when the take-up of EVs reaches the inflection point, but I guess the Government doesn’t care as they will all be retired (or dead) by then.
 
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Daxx

MIA
Book Reviewer
This amuses me, as, at present, we burn fossil fuels and use nuclear fuel to provide our 'cleaner electricity.
 
seeing as I season my firewood for a couple of years a steam car might be an option,
I think the "advisors" and policy makers are failing in research and forward planning and are attempting to drive us all into a cul-de-sac
 
Linda Ager-Wick Ellingsen, Bhawna Singh, & Anders Strømman, “The size and range effect: lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles,” Environmental Research Letters, 2016, 11 (5). The size and range effect: lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles - IOPscience
h Hyung Chul Kim, Timothy Wallington, Renata Arsenault, Chulheung Bae, Suckwon Ahn, & Jaeran Lee, “Cradle-to-Gate Emissions from a Commercial Electric Vehicle Li-Ion Battery: A Comparative Analysis,” Environmental Science & Technology, 2016, 50 (14), 7715-7722. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.est.6b00830
= ‘The emissions from building an EV vehicle are the same as for building an IC vehicle and driving it 70 000km. ‘
Then there’s the 4-8% of the earth’s co2 emissions from concrete to get 3 phase into your house...
 
3 phase ? that will make the power companies super rich with the cost of a new 3 phase supply.
Its in the small print. You want two hour fast charge then the supply is huge
You can have lesser chargers but they take 12 hours

I will add a caveat, I'm working on refrigerated vehicle last mile, if we do it then we have to power a chiller unit too.

As a rough idea, to make this work I need an industrial unit that I can secure 10+ vans in
It has to have something like a 400amp 3 phase power supply.
It has to be accesible by artic at very dark o'clock (ie no residential within noise issues)
And all of that has to be close enough to the city centre to allow for limited EV range

Its going to cost. Lots
The consumer is going to pay
 
It's not just the generating capacity, I regularly use a car park on a commercial / industrial estate that has 520 spaces, of those, there are 8 EV charging points. Assuming that has to expand to 50% coverage, then it's clear the local infrastructure isn't capable of supporting it, so larger sub-station, distribution cables, larger supply to the substation - add in all the on-site parking at the various businesses that will need charging points for customers, that's a lot of underground infrastructure that'll need upgrading....
Not forgetting that new housing estates will not be connected to gas mains, which I would assume means electric heating in all new houses. That'll gobble up some capacity.
 
3 phase ? that will make the power companies super rich with the cost of a new 3 phase supply.
We are seriously considering getting a MG electric car for my wife and planned to buy the fast charger at a very good discount. However we would need a three phase supply taken from overhead lines and run it via a ditch to our garage. All in our boundaries but the cost was nearly as much as the car.
 
Norway has a gigantic over capacity of Hydro generation, to the point they export lots of electricity, the UK most definitely does not, in fact we're not that far off having a shortage for current demand. Start pouring it into batteries and it's going to be a big problem, not ignoring the fact that a lot of houses, flats, workplaces and hotels could never install charging points.
EV's may be cheaper to fuel currently, but that's sure as eggs going to change HMG will not wish to lose the very significant tax take that petrol and diesel produces, there's no doubt that the slack will be taken up at recharging points.
There's also the very significant issue of range on EV's, charging times and battery disposal. The current batteries are made from some quite nasty materials, there's got to be a sensible recycling approach or we're going to be facing some interesting problems which will probably see millions dumped in poor parts of the world like we have with plastics and other "recyclables" that the West tends to ship off to be someone else's problem.
70 years ago most houses had few electrical items every decade or so more and more have been added and the system has coped.
For the majority of people the range of EVs doesn't matter because they normally do not drive that far.
The public have never really given a shit about recycling either so lets not pretend the majority of people are going care about third world countries.
Of course the missing tax will come from somewhere, that what governments do. If you smoke the government will find a way to tax you if you give up, so should you not give up?
EV is coming and unless you are constantly driving in some awkward areas, the chances are you will be buying one.
 

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
The new salary sacrifice scheme for electric cars is certainly a deal sweetener.

Currently looking at various options and if you add up the tax breaks it seems like the way ahead.

We currently lease two cars on private deals i.e they aren’t company cars. They are between 3 and 400 quid a month.

We do fairly high mileage, about 20,000 a year in each car. So our fuel bill is quite high about £2500 a year per car. In an EV I could expect to pay about 1/4 of this in electricity costs.

Now if we were to change these cars for EVs on the salary sacrifice scheme, they’d come out of our salaries before tax. We are both higher rate tax payers so that’s a 40% saving.

Totting it up my fag packet calculations, I could get a £900 a month lease on an EV and the actual cost to me would be about the same as my current spend on one car.

That puts me into Tesla Model S or Porsche Taycan territory. A nice step up from my current Golf GTD.
 
We are seriously considering getting a MG electric car for my wife and planned to buy the fast charger at a very good discount. However we would need a three phase supply taken from overhead lines and run it via a ditch to our garage. All in our boundaries but the cost was nearly as much as the car.

Exactly the issue I'm trying to address but multiply it by at least 10
I'll still need to run diesel powered trunk to serve regional hubs.

Additionally I am giving serious consideration as to how we recover vehicles with flat batteries.

On top of all that we run door to door deliveries on refrigerated vans with a 4 metre internal loadspace. 4 metre vans will not be available as electric. It just isn't going to happen.
The new MWB electric vans will also weigh in at 4250kg instead of the current 3500kg (all legislated for on a standard driving licence, HMG has though about it sensibly)

Electric.
Smaller range
Smaller vehicles (which actually means 25% more vehicles required in our case to cover reduced capacity)
Serious electricity supply required to charge.
Operational daily range for our purposes about a third of diesel

To cover the 25% reduced capacity and 66% reduced daily range of our current vehicles we need twice as many vehicles (obviously not all our vehicles do 500 miles a day, but some do) Average is 250 miles a day
We also need a distribution hub with 320amp plus 3 phase supply
Then we have to pay twice the price for the vehicles over diesel

The really glorious news is that I've been having a text conversation with one of the refrigerated vehicle builders this morning (I'm sure he appreciated that Arrse has me disturbing him on a Saturday morning.....)
Electric fridge vehicles are 12 to 18 months from viable. They think.
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
LEVC who make the electric and hybrid London Taxis are moving into the light delivery van markets
they will be made in Coventy


and another Company will be making the modern Morris Van in Moreton in Marsh

if they take off I will expect prices to drop a little, and once secondhand vans come on the market, smaller business will buy them

However
last week I was down the big smoke and met an old mate, he lives in a tower block with lovely views across London, still rents from the council, as you climb up from Wansdworth to Tibbets corner on the A3 the estate is on your left ( lovely views)
we talked about when we both went to school nearby, few of the residents then had a car, most used public transport to get to work, cycled or small motorcycle, a few drove, and most car owners garaged them and used them at weekends
well now the estate if chock full of large SUVs, people carriers and big German motors, parked on verges and grassed areas ,quite a few are owned by self employed chaps, who claim the dole, but seem to buy and sell medicinal items !
now we talked about EV cars
first problems, the Rude boys would not settle for a Nissan Leaf, they would want the electric equivalent of a range rover, and the council for the 50 flats in each block would not be able to supply a charging outside for each resident
so perhaps ten points
there would be fights, as some residents are very territorial about THERE parking space
charging leads would be unhooked and hacked into as the local Yoots would hate to pay money to charge their cars
leads would dangle out of flat windows leading to another Grenfell, and the Blocks Meter room would probably get broken into to hack into the supply
its bad enough when the Yoots kick off over turf wars on the stairwells, without mains voltages being involved
they would also rather like in their own country with water pumps, start monopolising the charge points and charging for the use
I can see real problems
My mate has been saving some dosh and now widowed, is thinking of returning to live in the Caribbean well away from it all in Havana where he has relatives
he reckons its quieter there ??
 

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
We have an electric Renault Kangoo at work. Not bad at all.

It’s so quiet, we’ve had to fit it with a buzzer so pedestrians can hear it coming. People just look at you in complete bewilderment when you glide past in a van that’s making a weird buzzing sound.

I believe they also do an electric Renault Master which by all accounts is quite good.

I visited a Fire Engine factory last year that was building hybrids for LFB.

Things are moving in the right direction. Manufacturers have 15 years to get this right.

We were still on the Mk1 Ford Focus 15 years ago. Think about the difference between that car and the current Focus. It’s night and day.
 
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the other week we had bit of crises,I put the phone down & had to leave there & then & travel 150ml to a job

at 70mph the electric version of the van should do 78mls or 144ml at 30mph

so 5 hrs to get there 10-12hrs charge on a normal socket & 5 hrs back home

looking at he small print, any drop in temp or pay load & where losing miles

Last month I did a round trip of 500ml in day,

used 2014 van inc battery £7k


or 2018 on derv for £1k more


A nearly new Kangoo ZE has £0 road tax?

Electric vans would work for us most days, however of the lads can't turn up with a charged mobile I suspect we'll lose days to uncharged vans....
 

philc

LE
I think my next car will be petrol, at present I am diesel, than maybe in 10 years look at electric.

This may interest some. I will let others pay for the infrastructure before I go electric.


IONITY, Europe’s network for high-power-charging of electric vehicles, announced it will raise its charging prices by over 500 percent effective January 31, 2020. At that price, it will be three times more expensive than a Tesla supercharger in Europe, which average €0.25 ($0.28) per kilowatt-hour, and more than double the price of gasoline there. IONITY is a joint venture founded by the BMW Group, Daimler AG, Ford Motor Company, and Volkswagen Group with Audi and Porsche. Its objective is to build an extensive 350 kilowatt High Power Charging network for electric vehicles to facilitate long-distance travel in Europe. It currently has 202 charging stations in 17 countries and plans to double this to 400 locations in 24 countries this year.


 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
Loosing that on the general public is goign to result in lots of crispy types.
At last. A green way of preventing the population increase.
 
I think my next car will be petrol, at present I am diesel, than maybe in 10 years look at electric.

This may interest some. I will let others pay for the infrastructure before I go electric.

I've been looking at petrol and diesel skodas recently. I like petrol, but the emissions and fuel economy is better on the diesel.
A Phev of some sort was looking attractive, until the Gov decided to phase those out as well
 
We have an electric Renault Kangoo at work. Not bad at all.

It’s so quiet, we’ve had to fit it with a buzzer so pedestrians can hear it coming. People just look at you in complete bewilderment when you glide past in a van that’s making a weird buzzing sound.

I believe they also do an electric Renault Master which by all accounts is quite good.

I visited a Fire Engine factory last year that was building hybrids for LFB.

Things are moving in the right direction. Manufacturers have 15 years to get this right.

We were still on the Mk1 Ford Focus 15 years ago. Think about the difference between that car and the current Focus. It’s night and day.

They do. 75 mile range. Less when the weather is cold.

They don't have 15 years, cities are already introducing zero emission zones.
They have two years, or the big cities will starve (which may not be a bad thing)
 

4(T)

LE
We have an electric Renault Kangoo at work. Not bad at all.

It’s so quiet, we’ve had to fit it with a buzzer so pedestrians can hear it coming. People just look at you in complete bewilderment when you glide past in a van that’s making a weird buzzing sound.

I believe they also do an electric Renault Master which by all accounts is quite good.

I visited a Fire Engine factory last year that was building hybrids for LFB.

Things are moving in the right direction. Manufacturers have 15 years to get this right.

We were still on the Mk1 Ford Focus 15 years ago. Think about the difference between that car and the current Focus. It’s night and day.


The problem remains that the laws of physics remain unchanged and - as far as we know - will remain unchanged.

Electrical energy storage systems have about 1/15th of the energy density of basic petroleum.

Ergo batteries and other devices will have to improve by at least an order of magnitude (x10ish) to even come close to the energy delivery/weight of hydrocarbon fuels. AFAIK, there is no research pathway known to science that might achieve this.

So, for practical purposes, one tonne of hydrocarbon fuel would need to be replaced by 10+ tonnes of battery. We can make beautiful-looking Teslas or vans, but they'll still need a slab of a battery for a dismal operating range.

The Ford Focus analogy thus argaubly doesn't really hold true. A milk float from 2020 is nearly identical in mechanical function to a milk float from 1920 - because the fundamental limitations of battery power have not been overcome.
 

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
The problem remains that the laws of physics remain unchanged and - as far as we know - will remain unchanged.

Electrical energy storage systems have about 1/15th of the energy density of basic petroleum.

Ergo batteries and other devices will have to improve by at least an order of magnitude (x10ish) to even come close to the energy delivery/weight of hydrocarbon fuels. AFAIK, there is no research pathway known to science that might achieve this.

So, for practical purposes, one tonne of hydrocarbon fuel would need to be replaced by 10+ tonnes of battery. We can make beautiful-looking Teslas or vans, but they'll still need a slab of a battery for a dismal operating range.

The Ford Focus analogy thus argaubly doesn't really hold true. A milk float from 2020 is nearly identical in mechanical function to a milk float from 1920 - because the fundamental limitations of battery power have not been overcome.
A Tesla Model S has about 1/2 - 2/3 the range of an equivalent sized diesel saloon.

It doesn’t weigh 10x more.

It just takes a bit longer to “fill up.”

The majority of people could very quickly adapt to an EV with very few lifestyle changes.

Apart from adding a longer lunch stop on 300 mile plus journeys, it’s gonna make literally no difference to my life and how I use a car.

And that’s as it is now. That doesn’t take into account any further developments in technology over the next 15 years.
 

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