Why Would You Want To Belong?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by wotan, Dec 11, 2006.

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  1. Here in Canada, the Gay Marriage debate has pretty much run its course. It has been legal for a gay/lesbian couple to get married for about a year now and society hasn't collapsed.

    However, there is a gay couple in Nova Scotia, both 69, that are shocked that the Roman Catholic Church will not give them communion unless they promise to remain celibate. Fair, enough, the Church belongs to the Pope and he can make the rules.

    But what I don't understand is, why would anyone want to belong to a Church that doesn't fit their lifestyle? What is it with folks (not just this couple and not just gay/lesbian folk either) that they insist that institutions that don't want them or accept their lifestyle/philosophy, change to accommodate them? The Church doesn't like your marriage and sexual orientation? Hmm, perhaps find a Church that accepts your marriage and orientation.

    Earlier this year, two twin sisters (both 17) sued to have the chance to play on the boys hockey team. This, despite the fact a girls team was also available at the school. Why? The players on the girls team weren't "good enough" to play at the level these two expected and would "hold them back". The court granted them the right to try out for the boys team and they did try out. Didn't make the cut, because they weren't good enough. Now, they don't play on any team and their "dream" of eventually playing pro hockey is trashed.

    Can't folks accept that sometimes there are rules for reasons or at least realize that there are occasions that when you change the rules, you change the essential quality of the thing you wanted to join? And, most usually, attendant and unwanted consequences.

    Guess I'll just never understand.
  2. Well, the two examples you give aren't really the same.

    I agree that the girls' hockey team example is an example of silliness. But that's because the reason there are separate teams for different genders is because they cannot compete on the same terms - so the issue the girls were objecting to is precisely the thing that necessitates different teams. They were simply wrong in thinking that their level of play was the same as the boys' team.

    In most cases, when people choose their church they don't do so on the basis of what its rules or regulations are. The identity of the church isn't bound up primarily with the profile of its rules: instead, it's to do with the more fundamental set of beliefs of which these rules are merely a product. Therefore, it's easy to see why people could hold to the beliefs of a particular church to do with god or whatever but not necessarily also accept its moral code.

    Objecting to some of the values of an institution but not the essential nature of an institution has significant historical precedents. Suffragists didn't want to leave Britain; they wanted to remain and accept other parts of the country's culture, except that part, then entrenched in law, that dictated women were unable to vote. The process of changing something for the better from within is an excellent way to evolve an institution so that it remains relevant to the present and the requirements of its members or those it influences.
  3. My mother was both a christian and a spiritualist. Both the Anglican church and the most popular spiritualist movement rejected her beliefs and so she found a christian spiritualist group and became a vicar with them - drawing people away from the larger organistation.

    If You can't join em, beat em
  4. Nor did the Army collapse after gays were allowed in, as we have now discovered over here as well. It was several years after I returned to the UK that I found out that one of the Pl 2ics in the Canadian Company that I was attached to was gay. His Pl didn't fall apart, although he apparently identified his sexuality as the reason why he would never progress beyond Warrant Officer.

    Another soldier in my Company was one of the first Infantrywomen in the CF. She had signed up to the Army and the only vacancies were in MOC 031: Infantryman. She couldn't handle the barrack room banter and had to be held over strength in the Admin Office until she had three years in and could transfer to a different corps. She clearly joined a club which didn't want her (even though she was technically allowed to be a member) and one that she didn't want to be a member of.

    Why did she want to belong? Her avowed reason for joining the Infantry: "to get out of New Brunswick." Never having visited that province, I can't empathise.

    Not quite the suffragist attitude referred to by pogz, but I wonder how have other Infantrywomen fared in the CF since this one in 1995?
  5. I'm confused, why again was it the gay men wanted to join a Catholic Girls School hockey team? I thought that kind of thing only happened in "male interest" films.

    Confused of Cuddles
  6. This kind of stupid bloodymindedness is becoming more apparent in the UK all the time.

    My tuppenceworth is that it's an inevitable consequence of the elevation of individualism over collectivism. If a group excludes certain types of person, there's always one of them that wants in just to prove they can get in.

    Couple it with the kind of PC hypocracy that sees nothing wrong with forcing men-only clubs to admit women, but views women-only gyms as only right and proper and you begin to hammer a rather large wedge into the cracks in society.

    "I wouldn't want to join a club which would have me as a member" - Groucho Marx.
  7. maninblack

    maninblack LE Book Reviewer

    Here are a few organisations that could be viewed as technically illegal or suspicious in their equality practices on the grounds that they may discriminate against others on the grounds of skin colour, gender or orientation.

    Black Police Officer’s Association.
    Association of Muslim Police
    Association of Senior Women Officers
    British Association for Women in Policing
    Catholic Police Guild
    Chinese & South East Asian Staff Association
    Christian Police Association
    Gay Police Association
    Greek Staff Association
    Hindu Association
    Jewish Police Association
    Sikh Association
    Police Anglo Italian Staff Association
    Turkish & Turkish Cypriot Association
    GLUG (Gay and Lesbian Underwater Group)
    Women’s Institute
    Mother’s Union
    Young Conservatives
    Young Farmers

    I am not represented by any of these organisations and do not qualify as a full member and therefore would like to know when a white, middle class person will be taking offence on my behalf and trying to ban them……oh, sorry, I am a white middle class person so I had better take offence on your behalf to protect you from the prejudice that you are too ill educated to see because you are not white, middle class and crippled with an over active social conscience.
  8. Lets make this clear...Homosexuality is very destructive in a long term not just a couple of years.....a deep crack inside any normal society.

    I dont say , take the gays and lesbians and burn them alive but I say they need to be psychologicaly treated to get back to their normal state.

    When your compass points to the South rather than North, you dont just say:" it's ok..It has the right to choose her lifestyle"..But you start search for the error that causes this deviation.

    And if you were a gay Wotan then just say it man, it's ok!!..You dont have to explain yourself to us ,really.
  10. Yet more drivel. Im no fan of Homos but you, my friend, are a true biggot
  11. I suppose it depends on how deep inside the crack they go.

    You say it is destructive in the long term, homosexuality has been around for more than a couple of years and I don't really see it causing an end to "normal" society, assuming that we know what normality is.

    As for psychological treatmant to get back to thier normal state, homosexuals ans lesbians consider themselves to be in a normal state, if they were bisexual what treatment would they need, unless female whena video camera is useful.

    Any way for every homosexual man there is a spare woman for ugly fat blokes, that and where would we get interior designers from.
  12. Maninblack, as a white, middle class, adult male you have no rights. Nobody cares about your oppinion, or whether you even live or die. Join the club, just don't tell anyone your in it or you'll be hung out to dry for being racist/sexist/ageist/leftist/rightist/middleist/hightist/generaly-not-well-liked-ist.

    Sorry man, thats just the rub of the green.
  13. Julian Clary, eat your heart out.
  14. Some interesting points and some complete whack job stuff, but fair enough, it is, after all, the internet.

    I'm not trying to take to task any religion or lifestyle, colour, creed or whatever. My point is, if an organization exists that isn't a match to your beliefs and lifestyle, why attempt to join it? I'm not a big fan of the Catholic Church. Hence, I don't attempt to join it, but neither to I begrudge the existence of the Church to its many millions of followers.

    I can't play hockey (yeah I know, I'm the only Canuck that can't), so I don't expect to be accepted on to a team. I like my beer, so I don't join the Temperance Society or try to convince AA chapters to have an open bar.

    I suppose in some cases (maybe most) folks have a political agenda they are wanting to push, but still, it just strikes me as odd. Perhaps it is motivated by a form of envy, and they are willing to make an ass of themselves just to ensure others can't have what they never will, no matter how many legal rulings decree otherwise. Cheers.
  15. Gentlman,

    Don't they have homosexuals in "Romania"?

    Or is it an offence in Islam?