Why were successful WW2 US generals fired but contemporary unsuccessful generals retained?

I mean it never has been the Army primary role to deal with terrorists and run a country.

You better tell the army then, as the army as been used in that capacity many times, well
the "to deal with terrorists" bit anyway
as in
Malaya emergency
Northern Ireland
and many more,

Shockingly enough, after nearly 2 decades, it was the people of Afghanistan who should have been dealing with the Taliban, not foreign militaries.

I agree with you there.
Shocking that @stacker1 still thinks that Afghans ever thought of Afghanistan as a country, rather than a collection of tribal fiefdoms.
Shocking that @stacker1 thinks that the army chooses the conflicts to fight and has endless foresight and storage space for weapons, vehicles that are theatre specific, and body armour.
Someone tell the turnip that politicians choose the fights, the peacetime budget and the selling off of surplus....
... best buy him another box of tissues and a bog roll while you are at it as contrived tears and verbal crap will soon follow.
 
Shocking that @stacker1 still thinks that Afghans ever thought of Afghanistan as a country, rather than a collection of tribal fiefdoms.
Shocking that @stacker1 thinks that the army chooses the conflicts to fight and has endless foresight and storage space for weapons, vehicles that are theatre specific, and body armour.
Someone tell the turnip that politicians choose the fights, the peacetime budget and the selling off of surplus....
... best buy him another box of tissues and a bog roll while you are at it as contrived tears and verbal crap will soon follow.
What a complete penis you are to not realise the army isn't there to police foreign nations.
 
Northern Ireland when the British armys primary role was to assist the police you mean?

And assisting the police, they killed terrorists..................yes

Please tell us all how the Army in northern Ireland dictated what the legal system should do or what politicians should do.
Try reading my post again
You better tell the army then, as the army as been used in that capacity many times, well
the "to deal with terrorists" bit anyway

Malaya that was under British control?

But not controlled by the British Army, the army had no say in the running of Malaya
Did they investigate terrorists and convict them? Did they engage with Sinn fein? Did they make political decisions?

Or was that the scope of civilians?
 

anglo

LE
Did they investigate terrorists and convict them? Did they engage with Sinn fein? Did they make political decisions?

Or was that the scope of civilians?
goalposts.jpg


whistling.gif
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Malaya that was under British control?

Northern Ireland when the British armys primary role was to assist the police you mean?
Please tell us all how the Army in northern Ireland dictated what the legal system should do or what politicians should do.
In NI the Army’s primary role wasn’t supporting the police until 1977. Up to that point it was the job of the police to support the Army.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
In NI the Army’s primary role wasn’t supporting the police until 1977. Up to that point it was the job of the police to support the Army.
I don't recall the briefings I had 70-72 for four tours saying that. I was always under the impression we were there in support of the civil power and through them the Police.

Edited for clarity.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Did they investigate terrorists and convict them? Did they engage with Sinn fein? Did they make political decisions?

Or was that the scope of civilians?
The army's job was to support the police, not become the police
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
I don't recall the briefings I had 70-72 for four tours saying that. I was always under the impression we were there in support of the civil power and through them the Police.

Edited for clarity.
Police primacy only came in during 1977. Of course Army was ‘supporting’ the police during that time, but the police did not have the lead.
 
In NI the Army’s primary role wasn’t supporting the police until 1977. Up to that point it was the job of the police to support the Army.

So it 1977 the police took over the responsibility.
Thanks for confirming my point.
 

anglo

LE
No goalpost moved at all, some people seem to think that it's the British armys job to run foreign countries.
Some people do indeed say that, but not me,
In my first post, I'm talking about the army


Iraq and Afghanistan, were wars that couldn't be won, didn't matter who was put in charge,{Army}
If you take Afghanistan, everybody who went into the shithole as left with their tail between their
legs, {Armies} but put the same people {Army} in a conventional war, and things would be different.
 
Some people do indeed say that, but not me,
In my first post, I'm talking about the army


Iraq and Afghanistan, were wars that couldn't be won, didn't matter who was put in charge,{Army}
If you take Afghanistan, everybody who went into the shithole as left with their tail between their
legs, {Armies} but put the same people {Army} in a conventional war, and things would be different.

We're the Iraqi forces removed from power?
Where the ruling party of Afghanistan removed from power?

Then the army did its job.

"Left with their tails between their legs" What utter horseshit is that? The Armies involved don't get a choice whether to stay or leave, if they were told to stay for the next 50 years they would have had to.
 

anglo

LE
We're the Iraqi forces removed from power?
Where the ruling party of Afghanistan removed from power?

Then the army did its job.

"Left with their tails between their legs" What utter horseshit is that? The Armies involved don't get a choice whether to stay or leave, if they were told to stay for the next 50 years they would have had to.
Tell me which country as won a war in Afghanistan, it doesn't matter how long they stay they get kicked out in the end, they always leave in a hurry,
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Post-Cold War operations have been characterised by Western politicians overfilling the shitcan and then asking the military to sit on the lid.
 
I stumbled upon the 2011 'Nimitz Lectures' at Berkley, where Thomas E. Ricks, a Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS), leads with a question, "Why was Terry Allen, commander of the US 1st Inf Div, and most successful divisional commander the US had in WW2, who never lost a battle, fired by Omar Bradley, when contemporary US generals always screw up and never get fired.?"

George C Marshall fired two hundred generals and colonels from what he termed , America's 4th Grade Army, and used the Louisiana Manoeuvres to sort the chaff from the wheat.
I like some of the names the divisional commanders had, the ones who took divisions from those manoeuvres to Europe, Brig. Samuel Tankersley Williams, aka, 'Hanging Sam' Williams, was one. He did later get relieved of command and bust back to Colonel for arguing, but being relieved was not a career ender in WW2. Of the 4 Corps commanders and 16 Division commanders who were relieved, all were reassigned and some were again given command of troops in action. 'Hanging Sam' commanded the 25th Inf in Korea and in fact retired as a 3 Star.
General Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr. son of a Confederate General, was so critical of the navy's jobsworth attitude he penned a humorous poem which the navy did not find funny, and he was almost fired by Marshall

In far Alaska’s ice spray, I stand beside my binnacle
And scan the waters through the fog for fear of some rocky pinnacle
Projecting from unfathomed depths may break my hull asunder
and Place my name upon the list of those who made a blunder.
Volcanic peaks beneath the waves are likely any morning
To smash my ships to tiny bits without the slightest warning

I dread the toll from reef and shoal that rip off keel and rudder
And send our bones to Davey Jones—the prospect makes me shudder.

The Bering Sea is not for me, nor my fleet headquarters
In moral dread I look ahead in wild Aleutian waters
Where hidden reefs and williwaws and terrifying critters
Unnerve me quite with woeful fright and give me fits and jitters.
( History.net article on Buckner and also his poem )


(During the invasion of Okinawa, while at a forward OP, General Buckner Jr later became famous as the most senior US General to be killed in combat).

Mr Ricks concludes that by not punishing failure in Iraq and Afghanistan the US could not reward success, therefore the US has bred a mediocre officer corps fit only to achieve stalemates, not victories.

Not having a pop at our cousins, our own crop seem more focussed on winning PC battles than muck and bullets wars.



Worth a watch

Thanks for sharing this, that was very interesting.

Thought he might have delved a little more on the rotation policy that the US Army developed? And whether it was a reaction to the WW2 reliefs?
 
Thanks for sharing this, that was very interesting.

Thought he might have delved a little more on the rotation policy that the US Army developed? And whether it was a reaction to the WW2 reliefs?
The officer 6 month(?) tours? As explained to me by a Vietnam veteran, (a captain in the USMC who had lost a foot to a mine and was working as a social worker at a London children's home) it was to get the officer corps blooded in Vietnam.

Not sure if that was his opinion or official policy.
 
The officer 6 month(?) tours? As explained to me by a Vietnam veteran, (a captain in the USMC who had lost a foot to a mine and was working as a social worker at a London children's home) it was to get the officer corps blooded in Vietnam.

Not sure if that was his opinion or official policy.
I’ve read similar - seem to recall that there’s a piece by S L A Marshall that references the time that Army leaders had spent in charge of their WW2 commands, and it was all relatively short tenures.

And if you’re preparing for WW3 as the main effort, then getting more combat command experience into the officer corps on the face of it sounds like a good idea, but the sacking of WW2 divisional commanders seems to have been replaced by sacking Vietnam battalion commanders.
 
In NI the Army’s primary role wasn’t supporting the police until 1977. Up to that point it was the job of the police to support the Army.
Relationship between the police and the army seemed to cool in 1977. When I went out there in 76, in Strabane we hot bunked in decrepit caravans in the Strabane police station yard and had our own ops room, although there was a lot of toing and froing with the old bill in the nick who we got on quite well with. That changed and the coppers stopped being so chatty. Their Ch Supt started inviting the locals to complain about the army and things got a bit frosty. Despite all this the police did not resume patrolling the two Catholic estates, and when his name was daubed on a wall in one of them he wanted the army to clean it off. As I recall it was still there in 78 until 'Coldstream Killers' replaced it (in response to the biggest and meanest bitey dog on the Top of the Town estate meeting a mysterious and untimely end.)

*Note the cricket result on the wall at left of pic.... I am sure that is what they meant :rolleyes:
4427_82746009475_5776511_n.jpg
 
I researched Almond for a book on Chosin. How the hell could he NOT have been relieved as a divisional commander in WW2. Demeaned and alienated his troops, all black, who not surprisingly under-performed, except for his artillery which was apparently outstanding.
In Korea he was X Corps commander all due to ass-licking 'Big Mac' who loved sycophants. Alienated his black and Hispanic units as soon as they stepped ashore and treated the advance to the Yalu as a pissing contest with the 8th Army. X Corps were strung out all over the show.

Almonds troops tossing away the silver stars that he carried in his pocket as 'encouragers' and also the IOU's he pinned on when he ran out of those.
Thank God for Ollie Smith and the USMC, and thank God Almond handed the battle to Smith and scuttled off back to his HQ.
For anyone interested in the Chosin Reservoir, I can recommend On Desperate Ground, by Hampton Sides. A great read, with Almond's behaviour laid wide open, as well as some truly incredible individual stories.
 

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