Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

#1
Via Hellinahandbasket on PoliceOne Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”


He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.
...
Jaw dropping tale worth reading in full.

Used to be
a Security Six and a couple of speed loaders felt pretty adequate.
 
#7
Police marksmanship is generally shit, that is an informed statement. He probably needs 145 to hit the target.

I have a plod mate down in the Fort Lauderdale area with around 20 years service, SWAT team leader, excellent shooter on a competitive level. He takes the piss out of the local equivelent of the APWT every time he shoots it. The test requires you to start loaded and holstered, shoot the course of around 40 rds then re-holster. He starts with an empty pistol and empty mags with a box of sealed ammo on the rest in front of him. When the buzzer sounds: He opens the box of ammo; takes out his mags, loads them all up with ammo; takes out his pistol and plonks in a mag; re-holsters; then he shoots the qualification; emptys the pistol; picks up the brass......................and waits for the final buzzer to stop shooting. He passes every time.

One thing I have noticed about most Americans; its about the right to bear arms and not about the ability to shoot them properly. Some can, most can't.
 
#8
So he carried 47 rounds and hit the guy 14 times- that's roughly one in 3. He now carries more ammo and I don't even want to calculate the number of potential misses in the future. He might be safer carrying less, not more, certainly from the position of the public! Either that or more range time.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
So he carried 47 rounds and hit the guy 14 times- that's roughly one in 3. He now carries more ammo and I don't even want to calculate the number of potential misses in the future. He might be safer carrying less, not more, certainly from the position of the public! Either that or more range time.
So you hit what you're shooting at with every round every time? And under fire?
 
#10
Interesting that he's switched from .45 to 9mm. I know you can carry more 9mm rounds but I thought the US view was that a .45 is only slightly less lethal than THAT rifle?
 
#11
Police marksmanship is generally shit, that is an informed statement. He probably needs 145 to hit the target.
...
...
A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.
...
In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.
...
The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”
When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.
Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.
The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.
Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.
...
You may be right about police gun skills but I think we have an exception here. That's pretty fair shooting under fire.
We've got a remarkably determined perp doing a teabag impression here while armed with two pistols and a modern sporting rifle. What we have here is a case of handguns not killing people... quickly enough.

Interesting he's abandoned .45 ACP, in favor of the lighter 9mm and lots of them. If finally you've just got to shoot a guy in the brain pan to stop him the old horse pistol round loses its mythic attraction.
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#14
Why 145, what if on the day he actually needed 146... or a decent skill at arms lesson and range day


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did you not notice 'A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit' then?
 
#15
You may be right about police gun skills but I think we have an exception here. That's pretty fair shooting under fire.[/FONT][/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR]
We've got a remarkably determined perp doing a teabag impression here while armed with two pistols and a modern sporting rifle. What we have here is a case of handguns not killing people... quickly enough.

Interesting he's abandoned .45 ACP, in favor of the lighter 9mm and lots of them. If finally you've just got to shoot a guy in the brain pan to stop him the old horse pistol round loses its mythic attraction.
This is the target most qualify on. They have to hit what they call "the peanut", thats the area from the top to the bottom looking like a peanut or coke bottle. At distance out to around 20m - I can't find the quals requirement I have tucked away so thats off the top of my head.



During trials of body armour years back and watching the shoot ups on the range at LWBA back then also I noted some differences with 9mm and .45ACP. Namely .45ACP whilst it is a big knock down round it is not as good at penetrating as 9mm. The arguement is that 9mm over penetrates, big deal, so long as it cuts up the internals of its intended target. I have seen an oblique ricochet reloaded .45ACP accidently hit someone smack on the sternum (luckily) and the bone stopped the round, skin was penetrated, he had a bruise for a fortnight, but a 9mm or .38 super would have penetrated. When the bloke hit the deck clutching his chest someone just ripped his shirt open and pulled the tail end of the .45ACP out of indent.

.45ACP will hit and be stopped by kevlar, you can even check the weave of the kevlar imprinted in the round. 9mm cuts through kevlar. If you don't believe me and you have an official position contact the supplier of vests to your organisation or agency and ask for a shooting sample to play with, you will be surprised - I got my samples from LWBA and Bristol Body Armour.

I remember an RMP who was in Uganda who shot a fella 13 times with his Browning and the guy looked down at the holes turned and ran. He was doped up on weed, the fella, not the RMP.

Bottomline, its all about shot placement:

This thinking still permeates the firearms instruction community in this country, according to Bill Davison. But when Davison says, "I have never seen someone not die because they got shot with a 9 mil; they all died immediately and I'm really pleased with the cartridge," he has your attention. You know he's not just blowing smoke.
From: GunWeek.com

Bill Davison is ex-Shaky, a nice bloke, unquestionable experience, runs his school out of Texas. Bill's mantra is about shot placement where it counts. Hit the right place and you are just flicking an off switch, body function stops,regardless of how high, strong or doped up the bad guy is. This is also a mantra preached and taught by Bill Rogers and his well qualified ex-SEAL staff. You are basically aiming at a 4" - 5" area at distances out to 20m and not some feckin huge "peanut" that everyone seems to qualify on.

One drill run by a SF unit and now collared by civvies is the 2x2x2 drill. A 3" x 5" card, placed at 20 ft. You have to hit the card twice in two seconds, from the holster. in the Speshul unit you are randomly called upon to do the drill, fail and you are considered inactive until you pass.

Here is Kyle Lamb, ex-RSM of DELTA, showing his version with carbine.

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/156382-the-fastest-2x2x2-drill-on-the-planet

All in all, it is my most humble opinion that the cop could do better.
 
#16
145 rounds is nearly three times the annual personal practice expenditure for our local plod!
 
J

Joshua Slocum

Guest
#17
So he carried 47 rounds and hit the guy 14 times- that's roughly one in 3. He now carries more ammo and I don't even want to calculate the number of potential misses in the future. He might be safer carrying less, not more, certainly from the position of the public! Either that or more range time.

cant they just give him a gun with bigger bullets ?? be harder to miss then !!
 

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