WHY MUST WE GO SKI TOURING TO JUSTIFY ALPINE SKIING?

#1
Truth is we shouldn't have to but some clever PT sort thinbks that Alpine skiing isnt tough enough without the addedc pain of walking uphil on skis. Small minded sadists.
 
#2
Nowt to do with PTI's, I'm afraid it's all down to LAND training budgets, they'll only fund an exercise if A. Theres training value and b. Theres a military element to it. Unfortuantly as much as I enjoy a bit of Alpine myself, a few snow plow turns dont cut the mustard. Where as blowing out ya hoop and digging snow holes does.
 
#3
The trouble is that what you actually do is piss off the poor guys who have been told to attend and that they will get taught to ski nad enjoy themselves. Funding isnt the issue so much as the incessant need to make things a pain in the ares. Actually "they" claim that Skiing is not adventurous enough. Right, well thats crap too.
 
#4
Outstanding said:
Actually "they" claim that Skiing is not adventurous enough. Right, well thats crap too.
Thats not what is said here http://www.army.mod.uk/sportandadventure/adventurous/activities.htm

The shake up in the ski quals TL etc has long been overdue and ski touring will enhance the skills of any soldiers that find themselves deployed in colder climates and not AW trained.

The trouble is that what you actually do is urine off the poor guys who have been told to attend and that they will get taught to ski not enjoy themselves.
Hmm told to attend, I bet there are plenty of regular serving soldiers out there who would really enjoy any skiing course, sadly its rarely these types that attend.

Think yourself lucky "Outstanding" to do some adventure training.........
 
#5
I fully agree that not enough guys get the chance to go, what wazzes me off is that those who do are then suprised to find themselves walking uphill. If we cut that Phase out altogether we might get more people enjoying learning a new skill and being well plcaed to make the decision to go Touring.

You are too good a man to need to justify Army policy.
 
#6
Outstanding said:
Truth is we shouldn't have to but some clever PT sort thinbks that Alpine skiing isnt tough enough without the addedc pain of walking uphil on skis. Small minded sadists.
Top tip: Buy a chair lift pass.
 
#8
Never had a drama with the winter skiing package myself. I enjoy the challenge of going up as much as down, spending nights on the mountain and digging snow holes.

Adventure training does what it says on the tin. Provides ADVENTURE and TRAINING if it doesn't then it isn't adventure training.
 
#9
Outstanding said:
I fully agree that not enough guys get the chance to go, what wazzes me off is that those who do are then suprised to find themselves walking uphill. If we cut that Phase out altogether we might get more people enjoying learning a new skill and being well plcaed to make the decision to go Touring.

You are too good a man to need to justify Army policy.
problem comes that skiing falls between 2 stools and consequently 2 budgets. Go ski touring or do training orientated that way, on AT budget. Go fast down hill (on or off piste) and you're only a bib number away from a sport- different budget.

sport is not adventurous training and never will be. The issue has come around because in the past too many people abused ski training for fun and for free. The army doesn't fund mountain biking and white water rafting either, the system selected 8 activities and set barriers that had to be met before a very generous wedge of money is given.

Doesn't matter either way, alot should be expected of participants, be it sport or Adv Trg, its not ski val, panorama or thompson. If a unit wants to set a ski trip up as R&R, then unless it is prepared for all its boys to pay a good personal contribution, it has to screw the nut to get green dosh.

Anyway, outstanding, it sounds like you might have a bad case of sour grapes somewhere along the line. Did you get failed off a TLT, but just want a JSSI(A) for on piste stuff? or have you had some bad feedback from a PTI?
 
#10
The army doesn't fund mountain biking
Dont open that can of worms for at least another 10 to 20 years......

Going off at a tangent its bizzare that mountain biking isnt recognised by the Army, yet bikes are provided to some AYT's and CTT's by Div funding and other sources. Its also allowed as an "Extra" AT activity at the CO's discretion/written authority unit cost if supervised by a competent person.

Consequently because its not recognised courses for Instructors arent run (ridden?) by the Army.

Equation Instructor supervising mountain biking group with a Mlt/ML + First Aid ticket and a verbal"Yes Colonel Sgt "Jim Queen" has ridden a bike before and dosnt need stabilisers"..... result accident and Lait enquiry. (Quite a few of them!)

So the RAF in there wisdom have identified a scheme and governing body for Mountain Biking, and have providers to deliver the courses at there centres but only for RAF personnel.

Maybe the Army will follow suite when the old men at the zoo with there breeches, belts and brace's have done one

You are too good a man to need to justify Army policy.
Sadly not, but just do as Im told.......
 
#11
Incidently, as a future member keen to do lots of adventure training (stop laughing at the back) - what exactly is army ski touring?

Is ski-touring going around on those almost horizontal groomed tracks in the valleys using long, slim cross country skis? Or is it going up into the mountains using carving skis but with a heel-lifting binding and skins on the bottom of the skis? If its the latter then do you cover a lot of mountaineering topics too - avalanche forcasting, use of an ice axe, crossing glaciers etc?

Cheers,
Tricam.
 
#12
As you may know the famous adventure training activity sailing, not to be confused with the International and Olympic Sport of sailing is a recognised Adenturous Training activity. Alpine skiing, requiring fitness, considerable nerve whilst developing individual confidence all of which can be enjoyed in enjoyable (ie not soaking wet) surroundings fails to qualify as such. Oh and anyone who doesn't think alpine skiing is adventurous enough is invited to stand at the top pf a black run - and then ski down it. I'll show you adventure!!
 
#13
Oh and anyone who doesn't think alpine skiing is adventurous enough is invited to stand at the top pf a black run - and then ski down it. I'll show you adventure!!
You want to try it on skinny planks or for even more "Adventure" on a Grolsch crate..... after supping all the bottles 8O
 
#15
Outstanding said:
proves my point
not really. Sailing qualifications are essentially civilian ones governed by the RYA and their rules. Yes sailing does have races, however since there is not much difference in between a race at cowes and the sydney hobart (which got cheeky a few years back with a big storm IIRC) bar distance, duration and location, sailing has that necessary adventure inherent and possible. The skills learnt at lower levels can take you across the atlantic as competent crew.

Downhill skiing cannot exist without a commercial infrastructure. ski lifts cost and while I'm sure people do have a lot of very personal challenges at the top of a black (as I'm sure people get at the top of an artificial slope), it is not transferable unless you tour. Try do the haute route without touring skills. try and do a level 3 skiing exped without touring.

Ultimately downhill skiing is within a controlled contrived artificial environment. Touring brings freedom and is often dismissed by those too lazy to try it or those not willing to take the challenge in their stride. Quite simply, if one can't hack the small challenge of a TLT course on the way to get a JSSI(A), don't apply.

It does seem though that you have an axe to grind with the AT scheme as it applys to skiing. anything you would like to share with us?
 
#16
Harry Webster,

Are you Army or RAF?

Just wondering as I KNOW of many RAF Mountain Biking expeds(well at least three) with OH at least four participants. 2 male (RAF PTI) and both their girlfriend ( sorry SAC Mary Smith and SAC Gill Brown) who had a hard and arduous bike RIDE as an official Exped.

Mind there was also that one from the Defence College of Management Technology at Scrivenham, who went on the mountain Biking exped with all those different biking shirts and only two pairs of bike handlebars.

They did look good in the PXrs on top of those mountains, two out of 12 days driving up hills in the hire car and 10 on the beach.

Mind, remember SNOW QUEEN of old, How much can you drink.

I also attended a Snow Queen type held by the Engineers in 94, we were on the pist all the time , the rest were walking up the slopes on their skins for 3 hours.

Also had to dig snow hole in sight of the lodge in case of a problem.

WTF.
 
#18
tricam said:
Incidently, as a future member keen to do lots of adventure training (stop laughing at the back) - what exactly is army ski touring?

Is ski-touring going around on those almost horizontal groomed tracks in the valleys using long, slim cross country skis? Or is it going up into the mountains using carving skis but with a heel-lifting binding and skins on the bottom of the skis? If its the latter then do you cover a lot of mountaineering topics too - avalanche forcasting, use of an ice axe, crossing glaciers etc?

Cheers,
Tricam.
horizontal groomed tracks = cross country, more often seen combined with .22 rifles as biathlon.

ski touring is the latter, but not necessarily big mountains. can be split in to non glacial and glacial. Non glacial is good as not too nails, can be fun and can be use to link lower leverl resorts together in good snow. Also way to get better chance of fresh tracks (if you're not headplanting in 2 metre deep powder the whole time :oops: )
 
#19
It does seem though that you have an axe to grind with the AT scheme as it applys to skiing. anything you would like to share with us?[/quote]

Not really as I am a Ski tour Leader and JSSI(A), Snow and Ice and JSME Winter, it just strikes me that we might teach one skill at a time - it might be a lot more honest too!
 
#20
Not really as I am a Ski tour Leader and JSSI(A), Snow and Ice and JSME Winter
:lol: Well you have got your fair share of tickets out of the system, Be greatful for what pusser gives you as civpop have to pay big wongar for them there tickets.

In fact put your chit in for PT Corp they have plenty of ungrateful dripping fannys.....
 

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