Why Iraq ?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by tomahawk6, Nov 28, 2004.

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  1. Stratfor.... Good read, occasionally brilliant and insigtful but frequently "dodgy" in the hard facts department.
     
  2. Months prior to 9/11 I was debating the spread of terrorism, on another board, and much of my arguments where based on, You reap what you sow.
    I gave examples of how my country Britian had trained resistance fighters in WW II and then had them turn on UK troops. Greece, Palastine, Maylaya where three examples.
    The US ran many a terrorist campain in its day Nicaragua being a prime example and the films from Taliban trainng camps show they where set up by pros.
    I am not anti US.
    After cleaning up both UK and German markets the US entred WW I and helped bring a conclusion.
    I do not beleive that the UK could have won in WW II without the massive assistance of the US.
    The US was the dominat nation of 20 Century, soon it will be no longer biased toward the English speaking nation who did so much to create it.
    China is the new player and I do think that so much of current US policy is devoted to delaying the day when China becums the ascendant world nation.
    From what I read, the US had/has serious conncerns tha Saudi oil may fall into unfriendly hands, as with Iran in 79.
    Iraq has the second/third proven supplies of oil and the old rooshin 'Stans' seem filthy rich in oil reserves.
    Ganistan, always a problem in history and a soft underbelly for China?
    Can the US control China's oil supply ?
    The US showed no intrest in Sudans Darfur crisis then someone mentions Sudan supplys oil to China and the US starts talking, oil blockade to bring the Sudan gov into line.
    Bush and his Texan oil gunslingers they have much to answer for.
    john
     
  3. Months prior to 9/11 I was debating the spread of terrorism, on another board, and much of my arguments where based on, You reap what you sow.
    I gave examples of how my country Britian had trained resistance fighters in WW II and then had them turn on UK troops. Greece, Palastine, Maylaya where three examples.
    The US ran many a terrorist campain in its day Nicaragua being a prime example and the films from Taliban trainng camps show they where set up by pros.
    I am not anti US.
    After cleaning up both UK and German markets the US entred WW I and helped bring a conclusion.
    I do not beleive that the UK could have won in WW II without the massive assistance of the US.
    The US was the dominat nation of 20 Century, soon it will be no longer biased toward the English speaking nation who did so much to create it.
    China is the new player and I do think that so much of current US policy is devoted to delaying the day when China becums the ascendant world nation.
    From what I read, the US had/has serious conncerns tha Saudi oil may fall into unfriendly hands, as with Iran in 79.
    Iraq has the second/third proven supplies of oil and the old rooshin 'Stans' seem filthy rich in oil reserves.
    Ganistan, always a problem in history and a soft underbelly for China?
    Can the US control China's oil supply ?
    The US showed no intrest in Sudans Darfur crisis then someone mentions Sudan supplys oil to China and the US starts talking, oil blockade to bring the Sudan gov into line.
    Bush and his Texan oil gunslingers they have much to answer for.
    john
     
  4. I appreciate your point of view jonwilly but the until the west makes an alternative fuel we will be very focused on the oil producing countries to insure free access to oil for all countries.
     
  5. The Australian article is an interesting and refreshing perspective on the debate. Agree with it or not it at least moves beyond the US bashing we are used to in the media.

    Jonwilly. WTF are you talking about. What does 'oil falling into the wrong hands' mean? Ultimately oil finds its way into all markets and although countries might be selective of their clients, on-selling is common.

    I think you will find the Russians also played a major part in the defeat of Germany in both WWs. What is your evidence that The US wants to 'control China's oil supply'?

    How is 'Ganistan' the soft underbelly for China?
     
  6. I would also add that this boll*cks that is constantly being presented by the left as the focus on oil is somehow wrong. It is not wrong, it's vital and until someone comes up with a credible alternative oil production stability is vital. Just look how long it took Venesuala to fall apart as an economy earlier this year with their oil strike. Within a week their entire national distribution (logistics) system had broken down. Small businesses went to the wall and IMHO it will take years for that country to get back to being just a basket case.

    How long does anyone believe Britain will function if oil supply stopped to day?
     
  7. I agree about the vital nature of oil, which adds some creedance to the suggestion that a strong Western military presence in the Gulf region may indeed be intended to prevent the forging of any alliances with our friends from further east, currently the fastest growing market for oil in the world...
     
  8. China is developing Iran's biggest nat gas field and building a crude oil pipeline intended to supply itself. It has various big infrastructure deals going, not directly connected with energy, including the construction of the Tehran subway system.

    China is a permanent Security Council member and might be expected to block punitive anti-Iranian resolutions proposed by the USA.

    I think our friends from further east are making hay while the sun shines, as the expression has it.

    In a few years, China has moved from being a net oil exporter to the second biggest importer on the planet.
     
  9. WTF ya want to WTF me for unless you want a slanging match.
    Have a good long think about what I say. I never claim 100% right in any post but at least I do think about the subject and gather views from sources other then this highly biased board.
    There are places where the debate on just what the US is up to and why have been going on for a long time. Extreme views on both sides, just remeber how the US reacted when Khrushev placed nucs in Cuba. Remember how China reacted when the US/UN got close to their border, soft underbelly, muslim tribes a constant problem for China.
    Much to be learned from history, one convoy to Roosha contained the material to equip a Rooshin Army.
    Hitler lost his Gamble much to do with the massive support the US gave to Uncle Joe.
    john
     
  10. Jonwilly, no need for slanging match but the relevance of some of your comments to the topic are unclear. You said:
    Kennedy's actions during the Cuban Missile Chrisis were entirely logical and in keeping with sensible national security. The siting of short range nucs in Cuba totally distabilised the whole nuc balance between the US/USSR. There was nothing tricky nor underhanded in the US action there.
    The relationship of China/Nth Korea is still close and China would probably not tollerate a US led attack on Korea in general war. However China is unhappy that Nth Korea is distabilising its region and perhaps a more limited, targetted strike on Nuc facilities is possible (similar to the Israeli strick on the Iraqi Nuc reactor in the 70s) However what is more likely is that the US, who are not stupid, realise the stakes involved in Korea are far more complex than Afganistan and Iraq and are likely to continue working with China to get their ginger step child to behave. By the way in this region it is not the US thinking that is interesting but that of the Chinese. They are looking to dominate the world not so much through military power but through economic power, beating the capitalists at their own game.

    Muslim unrest? Try Tibetan unrest.
    In a country of 1.2 billion people whose population are predominantley not Muslim I find it hard to believe that unrest amongst any Muslim tribes are a major issue. More pressing for the Chinese leadership are problems with Falangong and probably the biggest is how to internally control a well educated population increasingly responding to capitalist opportunities.
     
  11. I was thinking of the Korean war of 50 ish years ago and how the Chinese reacted when the US led UN forces pushed close to their border.
    I was a school kid 15 ? at the time of the Cuban crisis and I remember all of us kids wondering if this day if it would be our last.
    China's economy is booming. That is if you live in the 'coastal' belt. The western area is still very backward and economically way behind.
    Here in CM we have a former UK consul and I have disscussed the situation in China often with him.
    We disagree on many points, but he's a gent of the old school and I'm an old senior and so we talk in a sensible manner, scoring points but listening and I hope learning. I have one other friend who is still a serving cival servant and he is Very knowledgable of China, he was there for Tienamen and has indepth knowledge on that subject.
    China is not as stable a country as it first seems. We all know that China thinks in Centuries or Milleniums and communisam will probably be remembered as a blip in the history of the ultimate capitalist state.
    The Party exsists because it is in power, but it is certainly not Communist and the old gaurd get fewer every day.
    China is in my opion vunerable from the west and south west, the part of the country that is missing out on the economic boom.
    Revoluntions and massacares of entire national groups are part of their long history
    and I do beleive this will continue.
    Upsets the business community does talk like that out here.
    john
     
  12. Jonwilly said
    I don't. And I don't see any evidence that really supports that statement. China has gone through huge changes in the past hundred years like every other country. I doubt that Mao, during the Cultural Revolution envisaged China in its current state in 2004.

    I know you were refering to the Korean War earlier.
     
  13. There is a book by Seymore Stirling on the overseas Chinese and how they became overseas refugees, and the history of the 'whichunts' that caused the mass exodus that caused them over the millenia. Parts of the world are occupied by Chinese migrants from certain parts of the Chinese coastal belt different 'clans'occupying different overseas lands. Hence Chinese food in Uk is different from chinese food in Germany, Canton verses Shezwan? the old German colony.
    The Chinese take a long term view on life, 3,000 or so years for their civilization, family is far more important to them then 'we' of the west can connceive.
    The was an artical here in CM where an elderly lady of Chinese origins tells how she came here with her parents many years ago. When you leave china for a new land you must find a chinese family of your name and the will help you.
    The thought process is different from ours.
    I was ammazed years ago when I saw the 'west' rushing to get china into the World Trade Organisation.
    Fast profits for wester industry from the ultra cheap wages, 1$ US a day, is still big money for many in China's eastern provinces.
    But giving China all the rights and privilages without requireing them to bring their Financial infrastucture up to 'World' standards was asking for trouble.
    They set their own rate of exchange, not accepting what the world would pay on an open market, they are allowed to play by their rules and still want to be acepted as a developing state.
    john
    PS on another subject just watched the Brit RSM taking the parade for the new Euro troops in Balklands.
     
  14. My mistake Anthony Sampson is the aurthors name.
    john