Why do we use webbing?

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"The sound of velcro unfastening . . . Mating call of the 1980s" !!

;)

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"the sound of poppers on a body top.... Mating call of the 1990s"

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Yawn......rim lock........ never read of any problems in the field.....never head any of the old boys in the Legion complain (and by Christ they could whinge !) - Gun Jesus thinks it might be a 'merican shooter thing
So here's the deal on (lack of) rim jam with British service ammo:


And here's what happens with some commercial ammo:


I got handed a bag of 1943 Winchester 303 ammo (which came in boxes marked that it was for practice). Lo and behold, the rims look just like the S&B there. So I think the issue is Americans having shot a lot of non-milspec .303 back in the day.
 
Not exactly. Besides having to remove the charger once you loaded the rounds it had to be oriented the correct way or you would get rim lock. It probably was the worst bolt gun to use in a high stress situation. Mauser and similar was so much easier. Even the Russians/Soviets had a better system for the internal magazine so you would avoid the issues that plagued the Enfield.
You've never actually loaded a Lee-Enfield, Mosin or a Mauser with a charger, have you?

Getting the rounds in the charger in the correct order is more to do with avoiding them binding.

Not only do the old & bold not mention it as an issue, the rifle pams do not mention rim jams at all (since it's just not a thing with British service ammo, it's designed to avoid it - see vid above). It's mentioned in the BREN pams as a fail on the rapid mag loading test cos the high spring tension and weight of ammo will prevent the rim riding over. You'd think a major "screw this up and you get killed" thing would in fact be taught to soldiers. If it actually existed in reality.....
 
Remove it? Remove it? Unless you've got an empty mag and desperately want 10 in it, at which point you flick the first charger out and then whac k in another one, or if you're reloading with only 5 (e.g. if you've got one or more remaining in the mag or are only putting 5 in) you just slam the bolt on it and it removes itself.

Like this, innit :p

That's my point. It's a non-issue...
 
The only problem I ever herd mentioned was with 303 Bren mags not really being strong enough for 30 rounds, so a smart team only loaded 28 rounds per

........when my time came on the re-chambered L4 (which a Rock with 'Battle of Agincourt' ribbons on his 'Thunderbird' jacket said definitely wasn't a Bren - and I was a **** if I referred to it as one. As you may imagine, Pointing out the words 'BREN No1 Mk2 1944' stamped on the side earned me no points) problem had been ironed out, though apparently the very sharp looking SLR* with L4 Mag combo, whilst looking funky, might have had feed problems towards the bottom of the mag due to the design relying on gravity

* (Dolores, butt number 474)
 
What on an ammo pouch? Oh, wait, you were air force.
How very dare you sir? Us eagle-eyed killers of the Station Mobile Defence Force had God's chosen webbing, '58 pattern, with smatterings of '44 and '37 (and scrounged US stuff) - which all smelt of damp dogs for some reason.

I miss TACEVAL mints (Sharps extra strong) with a hint of CS and mildew
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
SLR* with L4 Mag combo, whilst looking funky, might have had feed problems towards the bottom of the mag due to the design relying on gravity
Its been proven to be pish with live ammo. I did it with blanks and it wouldn't feed properly. Live it works. The Bren and L4 mags weren't designed for a gravity feed, if they were they wouldn't have a spring, gravity assisted? No not that either, the mag is where it is because the alternatives were tried and found wanting which is why we designed the Taden gun. Go on google it.
 
The only problem I ever herd mentioned was with 303 Bren mags not really being strong enough for 30 rounds, so a smart team only loaded 28 rounds per

........when my time came on the re-chambered L4 (which a Rock with 'Battle of Agincourt' ribbons on his 'Thunderbird' jacket said definitely wasn't a Bren - and I was a **** if I referred to it as one. As you may imagine, Pointing out the words 'BREN No1 Mk2 1944' stamped on the side earned me no points) problem had been ironed out, though apparently the very sharp looking SLR* with L4 Mag combo, whilst looking funky, might have had feed problems towards the bottom of the mag due to the design relying on gravity

* (Dolores, butt number 474)
"so a smart team only loaded 28 rounds per". You'd expect even the dim teams to at least be able to follow the pam and load 28, as specified in the later-war pams ;)

"due to the design relying on gravity"
As Ugly says, pish. It doesn't "rely" on gravity, there's a ruddy great spring in there. I've owned several L4 mags. They fed just fine in my SLR back when I owned one. Aside from L4 mags being curved and L2 mags being straight, I've not noticed L2 mag springs being any stronger than L4 ones, despite them being intended to be mounted on the bottom of an L2....
 
Not exactly. Besides having to remove the charger once you loaded the rounds it had to be oriented the correct way or you would get rim lock. It probably was the worst bolt gun to use in a high stress situation. Mauser and similar was so much easier. Even the Russians/Soviets had a better system for the internal magazine so you would avoid the issues that plagued the Enfield.
What issues?
 
......I'm just going by what I was told 30 odd years ago, not designed to offend the aficionados

Meanwhile, as a 14 year-old Space Cadet I was taught to load Lee Enfield clips down-up-down-up-down (depending on how you look at it) and if I could do that OK I wonder why US shooters struggle today.....
 
Pointing out the words 'BREN No1 Mk2 1944' stamped on the side earned me no points
Why did your BREN have "No1" stamped on it?


......I'm just going by what I was told 30 odd years ago, not designed to offend the aficionados
Did they also tell you that you could fire AK ammo in an SLR? :p
 
Meanwhile, as a 14 year-old Space Cadet I was taught to load Lee Enfield clips down-up-down-up-down (depending on how you look at it) and if I could do that OK I wonder why US shooters struggle today.....
Because with a lot of commercial ammo, if you load in the correct fashion from the PAM you will frequently get a rimjam. Because the rims are not the correct shape. As I demonstrate here (same video as posted above):

 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I kid you not - in the shops at Sandhurst you buy things called Mannyhose.

And no I didn't. But I know a guy who became a Monkey Officer who did.

Ah yes - What is Mannyhose? (with pictures)
Or Skinz as the modern version is known. Great for reducing all kinds of skin burn / rub / blisters, very significantly improving survivability and field admin in cold weather, and in reverse, shorter versions great for reducing infections and bites in jungle. As worn, in appropriate conditions, by most specialist environment / ML types / special people I've known. Weigh a hundred grams and generally prevent all sorts of minor field conditions which either require heavier, bulkier med resources to solve, or can quickly become a DNBI.

BUT OH NOES IZ WAT WIMMINZ WEAR!

Guess that's the difference between being professional and looking professional. Know which one I'd rather have in a patrol.
 
Its been proven to be pish with live ammo. I did it with blanks and it wouldn't feed properly. Live it works.
#metoo, albeit never had a problem with blanks either. All a loo oo ong time ago (but not in a Galaxy far, far away).
 
Or Skinz as the modern version is known. Great for reducing all kinds of skin burn / rub / blisters, very significantly improving survivability and field admin in cold weather, and in reverse, shorter versions great for reducing infections and bites in jungle. As worn, in appropriate conditions, by most specialist environment / ML types / special people I've known. Weigh a hundred grams and generally prevent all sorts of minor field conditions which either require heavier, bulkier med resources to solve, or can quickly become a DNBI.

BUT OH NOES IZ WAT WIMMINZ WEAR!

Guess that's the difference between being professional and looking professional. Know which one I'd rather have in a patrol.
I find the issue close fitting anti-microbial kecks (@rickshaw-major think cycling shorts) an absolute winner as they're free. With all this talk of under garments we are but a short step to a different type of webbing I fear.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
re. Webbing variances: The Americans I see seem to fall into two categories:

1. Speshul people and experienced personnel seem to wear a plate carrier with some pouches attached, 3, or 4, mag pouches up front, a couple of admin pouches, radio and a tourniquet, or two. These ones also seem to wear belt order with extra mags, IFAK, some admin, blade and a holster if carrying pistol - depending on role/function some seem to carry the holster on the plate carrier front, top centre.

2. The Ordinary Forces and newbies seem to just wear a plate carrier with all their gear strapped, bungied and black nastied to it. A belt may be worn but not geared up like the others.
The main point in 1. was that the webbing (much stripped down) went under the armour and back around the waist. This was so a) profile on the chest was reduced as it gets in the way of movement and particularly moving your arms in weapon drills, as well as later CIED advice to remove potential shrapnel from your chest area, and b) accessibility of magazines with one hand is much smoother at waist level than mid chest level (try the movement).

You'll also see some variations for personal preference or people who mostly spent time in vehicles (which is where the chest pistol thing comes from). Vehicle suitability is still the biggest factor, I reckon, when you look at more modern versions - the only real reason to wear stuff high up on your person is if you have move between vehicles and foot a lot. If you are on foot all the time, it's much preferable to have stuff lower down at your waist.

The reason 2. wore pouches straight on the armour is that was what they were issued with and no more. 1. required different or extra kit. 2. was workable enough but sub optimal.
 
Why did your BREN have "No1" stamped on it?
I confess, it may have had 2, 3 or 4, I'm working off memory and I've slept since then. Unlike you youngsters we had no mobile phones to take selfies with the weapons :( otherwise Dolores would still be my pin-up of choice...... though I admit I was unfaithful with a flighty black model 'down south'*

The not-a-Bren was over-stamped L4 <something> badly

Anyway, I'm going back to my flounce :p

*years after the war
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I find the issue close fitting anti-microbial kecks (@rickshaw-major think cycling shorts) an absolute winner as they're free. With all this talk of under garments we are but a short step to a different type of webbing I fear.
Yep, it's all a no brainer. Don't know anyone in a DCC role who didn't end up wearing those or (pre issue) Underarmour.

I'm just deeply skeptical of anyone who sniffs at sensible kit because the "look" is wrong. It's the mark of either an amateur, crow, fanboi or someone so far out of date that they're not even going to Oxfam. No real soldier gives a **** if you carry nail polish, makeup remover, tampons or hand moisturiser (all of which I have at various times) if they have a valid field use (which all of those do).

The kind of bullshit posturing that "proper soldiering" must only involve manly manly stuff is the mark of an amateur imo, and not one shared by all of the proper soldiers I've learned from.

PS

Nail polish (actually nail hardener but looks like polish) - reduces nails splitting / cracking in rocky environments - from a full qual ML

Tampons - patrol medkit as a cheap, sterile, easily available wound packer (in absence of modern supplied versions) - from an SF medic

Makeup remover - wipe off lumicolours on cas cards etc (also cam obviously) - from RMAS DS

Hand moisturiser - minimise field 'claw' - from PARA WO2 and JWIC instructor
 

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