Why Do We Go On Staff Rides and Battlefield Tours?

#1
Not a Wah Question, but how do I convince the LCpl equivalent civil servant?

We all know why we go an learn a little from history and how we'd do it better if we had the right kit to do it.......or if we were in charge at the time....... but the bean counter upstairs is questioning why we want to go and spend some of HM's money with the One Star's permission ( cos he's spending a bit of it on the defence of the Realm)

In short - Brig says yes, very cheap tour sorted and pukka learning to be had in bucket loads, but civil servant who runs the Brig's budget wants to be convinced.

Any clever words to send in his direction? ( apart from the obvious)!
 
#2
Whooaaa.......I see red when I hear comments like this.

Lets be clear, the Brig is responsible for the budget; the civil servant advises the Brig on propriety of the spend. If the Brig wants to spend his money on a Battlefield Tour then it is entirely up to him.

Many commands have gone down the wrong route IMHO of giving civil servants a command responsibility. Nothing against civil servants but they are advisors only. Commanders have the responsibility.
 

Unknown_Quantity

War Hero
Moderator
#3
I can't say anything about staff rides, but battlefield tours allow troops of all ranks time to think about their profession and how problems that were once faced were dealt with. A tour can give an idea of the scale and intensity of war and best of all may include the experience of the soldiers who were there. TEWTs and discussion leads to a greater understanding and appreciation at all levels of the tasks faced and the experience can manifest itself on exercise, or ultimately on the battlefield.

Fools learn by experience, I prefer to learn from the experience of others
Bismark, 1866

There is no more valuable training for young officers than a well run battlefield tour
Field Marshall Wavell 1923
 

CGS

War Hero
Moderator
#4
Absolutely...

The choice words for your civil servant should be that it is an order (from the 1*). It is his will, and there needs to be NO justification beyond that.
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#5
CGS said:
Absolutely...

The choice words for your civil servant should be that it is an order (from the 1*). It is his will, and there needs to be NO justification beyond that.
Normally I would agree, but in this FY there is a bit of a downer on battlefield tours due to our little cash flow problemette. There is extant direction out from LAND on the issue.
 
#6
CGS said:
Absolutely...

The choice words for your civil servant should be that it is an order (from the 1*). It is his will, and there needs to be NO justification beyond that.
Too true - if there is the slightest hesitation from said civil servant, then a sharp kick in the slats ought to point him in the correct direction. :twisted:
 
#8
pipelinepete said:
Sirs, Thanks
That's Ok - give the Civil servant a sharp cuff round the swede for causing you some unjust angst and extra work in a clearly busy schedule (and give hime one from me for causing me to write these posts (did I really mean that?)).
 
#10
OK men, I've read some of the stuff posted in here recently with interest, some alarm and mild dismay :roll:

I agree with ramilles: Remember always thet the Gen, Brig, Col etc is in charge :D and that the CS is there In Sp, so to spk...

So, I hear you ask, how do we, as mere officers [of any rank under Lt Col] deal with the dreaded CS?

Well, its pretty straightforward: you just deal with them in the same way as you deal with anyone you want to get rid of, noting that:

1. The Gen, Brig etc writes their PDR thingy (or is Countersigning C/S offr) :D

2. So, tell the CS that he/she is superb. (hang on don't have a go quite yet :wink: )

3. Get the CS on-side (talk/relate etc?). This includes taking every opportunity to let the CS see that the Gen, Brig etc relies upon you totally for the function that you carry out...

4. Meanwhile, ensure (if you are responsible for a certain function in the HQ/Unit) that all decisions made by that CS in this area are cleared with you before they proceed. In this respect you can fabricate at this point... remembering that your boss trusts you implicitly so there is no way that the CS will question the boss... and if the CS does, grip the CS firmly for going behind your back etc etc after all the trust that you have built up with them.
(In private, of course)

5. Concurrent activity: Attack the CS's LM with heaps of praise and get the whole of the military to support you.

6. It may take 8 or 9 months, but, when the C/S offr reads the glowing PDR written by the LM, he will agree, the CS will get an Enhanced Annual Bonus and be promoted to the next grade and posted to HQ Land.

Then, I'm afraid you have to start all over again with the replacement :D

Don't lose heart, its just a game, ok :D

But the reason why the CS beat the military almost every time is that we don't understand the rules :oops:

So, come on ppl. You know how to stab a colleague in the back? Just adapt, get smart, or lose :?

Oh, and I also do MS advice :wink: :wink:

Just PM me or e mail :arrow: MSRep@hotmail.co.uk
 
#12
Just been dealing with a similar request myself. Advice from our Div was some public funds could be authorised at Bde level.

Apparently LAND are formulating a new policy as we speak (for FY 05/06) so if I hear anything I'll pass it on.
 
#13
Right, checked this one out.

All LAND funding for Battlefield Tours has indeed been stopped, and it is likely to remain so for FY05/06. The good news is that public money from one (and only one) higher fmn can be applied for and granted. Unit T&S budgets can also be used for that side of life. The bad news is that no LOA/SMA/CILOR/ORP can be authorised.

The extant guidelines are in the Battlefield Tour Aide Memoire dated Apr 01. Finance is covered at Annex D. This document is to be reissued but don't hold your breath...
 
#14
The US Army have some great literature, written in very simple English, as you might expect that explains exactly why we go on Staff Rides / Battlefield Tours - look on Google and you should dig it up.

Also, at RMCS there is . used to be a lecturer called Dr David Ian Hall - he published a good article about Battlefields tours in The Quarterly Journal, Sep 02.
 
#16
I've got a very nice little military history paper exercise if you really can't get out on the ground - it's based on the Normandy campaign and the massacree of the Dorsets at Hill thingy (damnit its Friday and I don't do numbers after 1500 hrs). I wrote it for a West Country signal regiment and we were lucky enough to carry it out at the NAM...it is good, even though I say so myself.
 
#17
For info, David Hall is still at JSCSC (rather than RMCS). If anyone wants to get in touch with him, they can do so by going to the JSCSC homepage, and then to the Defence Studies Department website which (should) have contact details.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#18
pipelinepete said:
Not a Wah Question, but how do I convince the LCpl equivalent civil servant?

We all know why we go an learn a little from history and how we'd do it better if we had the right kit to do it.......or if we were in charge at the time....... but the bean counter upstairs is questioning why we want to go and spend some of HM's money with the One Star's permission ( cos he's spending a bit of it on the defence of the Realm)

In short - Brig says yes, very cheap tour sorted and pukka learning to be had in bucket loads, but civil servant who runs the Brig's budget wants to be convinced.

Any clever words to send in his direction? ( apart from the obvious)!
Have you considered violence?
 
#19
I think the civil servant is trying to suggest that the public's money could be better spent. Unfortunately, this is a tricky one to argue since quantifying the benefits of a battlefield tour is not easy. There's team building, professional development, etc but I have always struggled to find the perfect reason for spending money from the public purse on an area not implicitly linked with cold, hard, deliverable benefit. If anyone has has more success than me I would be interested ...
 
#20
Rightful_King_of_Norway said:
There's team building, professional development
QED.

It's the same as any other training we do. But there is a difference between a staff ride and a battlefield tour. The former is easier to justify insofar as the participants are expected to participate through research / presentation, whereas the latter (arguably less easy to justify) generally rely on an expert taking the tour.
 

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