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Why do our senior officers only develop spines on retiring?

#1
Having just seen the 10 o’clock news, I am fuming.

Our former brothers in arms, their families and friends are of course in my prayers, but how fecking dare Lord Guthrie come out in today's Mail and decry the amount of money spent on defence? What exactly did he do to stand up to the PM to either change the mission or get more money to ensure that we are properly equipped?

Mmm, interesting to see that he has only developed a spine once he has been ennobled and has his Lord’s salary to add to that from his Army pension! It is time that our serving senior officers develop spines and publically stand up for those who are putting their lives on the line.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tarved-forces-cash-says-ex-defence-chief.html

Soldiers 'dying because of cuts': Brown starved forces of cash, says ex-defence chief
By Matthew Hickley

Lord Guthrie said the lives of British troops in Afghanistan were endangered because of cash shortages

A former head of the armed forces yesterday accused Gordon Brown of endangering the lives of British troops in Afghanistan by starving the military of funds.

In a devastating personal attack, Lord Guthrie said that under Mr Brown the Treasury had spent 'the minimum they could get away with' on defence.

The resulting shortage of helicopters in Afghanistan has led to more British soldiers being killed by roadside bombs, the distinguished commander claimed.

It indicated 'the unsympathetic view the Chancellor of the day and the Treasury had of defence when Britain went into southern Afghanistan in 2006', he added.

Lord Guthrie, a former Chief of the Defence Staff, also accused the Treasury of harming the 'operational safety' of our soldiers by blocking British commanders' recent requests for more troops to fight the Taliban.

The comments from such a respected former chief are a severe blow for the Government at a time when UK casualties are rising fast, and criticism of Britain's strategy is growing more intense.

Seven British soldiers have died in Afghanistan in the past week alone, bringing the total killed since the operation there began in 2001 to 176.

The UK sent 3,300 troops into Helmand Province, in southern Afghanistan, in 2006, and that figure has since risen steadily to 9,000 - but commanders have warned that the force is still too small.

The recent offensive launched by British forces in central Helmand has caused heavy casualties. According to Army insiders, some units are down to barely half their manpower due to injuries, heat exhaustion and battle shock.
 
#2
Drop_Short said:
Having just seen the 10 o’clock news, I am fuming.

Our former brothers in arms, their families and friends are of course in my prayers, but how fecking dare Lord Guthrie come out in today's Mail and decry the amount of money spent on defence? What exactly did he do to stand up to the PM to either change the mission or get more money to ensure that we are properly equipped?

Mmm, interesting to see that he has only developed a spine once he has been ennobled and has his Lord’s salary to add to that from his Army pension! It is time that our serving senior officers develop spines and publically stand up for those who are putting their lives on the line.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tarved-forces-cash-says-ex-defence-chief.html

Soldiers 'dying because of cuts': Brown starved forces of cash, says ex-defence chief
By Matthew Hickley

Lord Guthrie said the lives of British troops in Afghanistan were endangered because of cash shortages

A former head of the armed forces yesterday accused Gordon Brown of endangering the lives of British troops in Afghanistan by starving the military of funds.

In a devastating personal attack, Lord Guthrie said that under Mr Brown the Treasury had spent 'the minimum they could get away with' on defence.

The resulting shortage of helicopters in Afghanistan has led to more British soldiers being killed by roadside bombs, the distinguished commander claimed.

It indicated 'the unsympathetic view the Chancellor of the day and the Treasury had of defence when Britain went into southern Afghanistan in 2006', he added.

Lord Guthrie, a former Chief of the Defence Staff, also accused the Treasury of harming the 'operational safety' of our soldiers by blocking British commanders' recent requests for more troops to fight the Taliban.

The comments from such a respected former chief are a severe blow for the Government at a time when UK casualties are rising fast, and criticism of Britain's strategy is growing more intense.

Seven British soldiers have died in Afghanistan in the past week alone, bringing the total killed since the operation there began in 2001 to 176.

The UK sent 3,300 troops into Helmand Province, in southern Afghanistan, in 2006, and that figure has since risen steadily to 9,000 - but commanders have warned that the force is still too small.

The recent offensive launched by British forces in central Helmand has caused heavy casualties. According to Army insiders, some units are down to barely half their manpower due to injuries, heat exhaustion and battle shock.
My bold. I think you've answered your own question :evil:
 
#3
Not many like to rock the boat whilst still serving. It might hinder their careers and let's face it; they haven't got to that rank by speaking out against the system.

Look at our old CO. Lt Col Tootal (3 PARA) after Herrick 4. He spoke out whilst on the op and afterwards. He had to leave soon after!
 
#4
presumably its because you never fully understand what is going on in the armed forces until after you leave it, plus, whilst still serving at whatever rank it can be a tad difficult speaking your mind., most of us have been in a position where a senior rank to ourselves was spouting boll ocks but we had to keep our gobs shut to avoid the fallout. Personally speaking, I frequently told Officers and Warrant officers if their ideas were pants, then again I also stayed a sergeant for 10 years as a result, but i was still happy and could still hold my head with pride. in a short sentence "the jobs fcuked" and we all know it is but who has the biggest cojones to stand up and risk their pension ??
 
#6
Unless Lord Guthrie publishes his diaries, or someone else does, we will not know his position, or what he did or didn't do, until the minutes are published 30 years after the event.

I suggest that all CDSs will have fought their corners very hard. But it will have been done in a multitude of ways, by patiently engaging with a lot of people and departments. At that level of government, shouting and stamping one's foot gets you absolutely nowhere.

We live in a democracy; our masters are elected politicians. They out-rank career soldiers by a long chalk!

Blame the politicians; do not blame the serving (or retired) military.

Litotes
 
#7
Litotes said:
Unless Lord Guthrie publishes his diaries, or someone else does, we will not know his position, or what he did or didn't do, until the minutes are published 30 years after the event.

I suggest that all CDSs will have fought their corners very hard. But it will have been done in a multitude of ways, by patiently engaging with a lot of people and departments. At that level of government, shouting and stamping one's foot gets you absolutely nowhere.

We live in a democracy; our masters are elected politicians. They out-rank career soldiers by a long chalk!

Blame the politicians; do not blame the serving (or retired) military.

Litotes
My bold. Are you sure about that?
 
#8
I understand that Guthrie did in fact tell Brown to his face that he did not understand defence and the point is proved by Brown’s announcement at his press conference today that the government had spent recently £Xm on new armoured vehicles. As though this is in some way mitigated the casualties.

So far as Brown is concerned Afghanistan is to be fought on a budget and the Army can bloody well like it.
 
#11
Litodes, I am afraid that I disagree. The CDS, CGS et al should be the professional heads of each Service and should be in a position to speak out for the Servicemen that they command. I am not naive enough to think that he and others have not fought against both the Government, Treasury and civil service - but they have lost those battles.

More importantly, they have not gone back to the Government and said that if you want to cut the Forces budget, then please decide what you do not want us to do. I do not think for one moment that we got out of Iraq for budgetary reasons - it was predominantly for political expediency.

Finally, if this fails then they should have the spine to either go before the Defence Select Committee or go public to stand up for those whom they command.
 
#13
Saw this on the news earlier. Guthrie, Jackson, et al. The only one with spine to speak out whilst in residence seems to be Dannatt. And look where that got him.
 
#14
Politicians only like "yes" men, look what happened to Gen. Dannatt, superceded by Jock Stirrup, who frankly only says things his political masters like to hear. Gen. Dannatt should have been taking the appointment of Chief of the Defence Staff, but got usurped by extending Stirrup for a further 3 years in an unprecedented move.

General Dannatt is going to be a sad loss as CDS because he did speak up for his men. Something that Brown and Ainsworth dont want to hear. Dont expect anything from Stirrup, he is doing the bidding of his political masters. I hope that when Brown and his corrupt cronies are kicked out of Downing Street next year, whoever takes over has the balls to ensure that Stirrup is also ousted.
 
#15
bobthedog said:
Politicians only like "yes" men, look what happened to Gen. Dannatt, superceded by Jock Stirrup, who frankly only says things his political masters like to hear. Gen. Dannatt should have been taking the appointment of Chief of the Defence Staff, but got usurped by extending Stirrup for a further 3 years in an unprecedented move.

General Dannatt is going to be a sad loss as CDS because he did speak up for his men. Something that Brown and Ainsworth dont want to hear. Dont expect anything from Stirrup, he is doing the bidding of his political masters. I hope that when Brown and his corrupt cronies are kicked out of Downing Street next year, whoever takes over has the balls to ensure that Stirrup is also ousted.
Agreed. I listened to Stirrup spouting the party line on the news tonight... it made my blood boil... :pissedoff:
 
#17
Fallschirmjager said:
Not many like to rock the boat whilst still serving. It might hinder their careers and let's face it; they haven't got to that rank by speaking out against the system.
That's exactly the problem that plagues the officer ranks. You don't get promoted by going against the grain.
 
#18
DeltaDog said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Not many like to rock the boat whilst still serving. It might hinder their careers and let's face it; they haven't got to that rank by speaking out against the system.
That's exactly the problem that plagues the officer ranks. You don't get promoted by going against the grain.
Why pick on the officers? The ranks are no different.
 
#20
StickyEnd said:
DeltaDog said:
Fallschirmjager said:
Not many like to rock the boat whilst still serving. It might hinder their careers and let's face it; they haven't got to that rank by speaking out against the system.
That's exactly the problem that plagues the officer ranks. You don't get promoted by going against the grain.
Why pick on the officers? The ranks are no different.
Because "the Ranks" do not hold the office of CDS and do not get anywhere near a government minister to voice their concerns or vent their anger. (I stand to be corrected).
 

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