Why cant we act like civvie firms? (/TA Promotion)

#1
It would be so simple if we did, I go for a year out from my current branch letting someone else into my slot. I go to a remote new branch and help train them up, get an excellent report and then return with a promotion. (Also proving I've got over a number of personnal problems during this period). Suppose this is like problems Bde Training Teams face on returning to their unit.

If it was a civvie company it'd be a very good plan, I can be replaced in my current region easily and I'd bring a lot of experience to a branch in another region, but with the TA my hard work would be ignored outside the new branch/region and returning to my current branch/region means I re-start at the bottom of the pile (with any previous baggage intact).

Suppose put another way, a CSM/SSM or SQMS/CQMS (and others) can do their job very well regardless of their cap badge. So why should WO2 Bloggs have to move to a unit 100 miles away, when another corps in the same TAC and/or city has a vacancy (in another corps/regt) and they are best for the job?
 
#2
Sad fact of life but if an employee of BT went out to drive for ASDA, once he returned to BT his experience would count for nothing.

For different cap badges, think different civi company, not a remote branch of the same company.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#3
Sounds like a great plan, once the TA becomes the single cap badge, single function "Reserve Army". Then there will be no requirement to consider career planning within individual units to ensure that soldiers and officers get the opportunity to fill posts required for subsequent promotion.

Everything will become a free for all as there will be no need to worry about who does what job, as long as someone is doing it. If you have been working your way up to being SSM of the Sqn you joined so many years ago, and are desperate to implement the changes you have dreamt of for so long but someone else jumps in before you because they live closer and they need to tick the SSM box, that will be ok. Won't it?
 
#4
MemSec said:
Sad fact of life but if an employee of BT went out to drive for ASDA, once he returned to BT his experience would count for nothing.

For different cap badges, think different civi company, not a remote branch of the same company.
No your talking about different employers, not different departments which the different cap badges are.

The_Duke said:
Then there will be no requirement to consider career planning within individual units to ensure that soldiers and officers get the opportunity to fill posts required for subsequent promotion.

If you have been working your way up to being SSM of the Sqn you joined so many years ago, and are desperate to implement the changes you have dreamt of for so long but someone else jumps in before you because they live closer and they need to tick the SSM box, that will be ok. Won't it?
Sorry don't get your post at all. Surely you need more career planning to ensure soldiers get the post they want.

Why should a soldier get the CSM/SSM slot in his Sqn? I know of a number of underperforming units that will breed crap WO2's. Surely movement would increase competition and quality, just like civilian life and regular army. This regimental/Sqn 'train set' mentality doesn't benefit the TA as a whole, it may have worked in a large TA but not in this small organisation we now are. Market forces, etc

I'm probably a bit selfish with this post but in my regt 3 of us are going for the same slot, although their are 1-2 vacant slots in neighbouring Sqns but they offer zero promotion prospects as RHQ is 212 miles away (/4 hrs). The reverse applies to our Scot/Southener/Brummie Sqns, SNCO's/officers would be better going to local Signal Regiments to gain promotion (or other cap badges)
 
#5
Still on the selfish part of my post: If the TA was a civvie firm, they'd move me to the Sqn to the North (they're taking on my current Sqns role) but I'd still have the oppurtunity to move back to my current location. In the current TA world, its more likely I move to the troop thats re-roleing within my current Sqn (so I more than likely loose rank but Sqn maintains it's numbers)
 
#6
The_Duke said:
Sounds like a great plan, once the TA becomes the single cap badge, single function "Reserve Army". Then there will be no requirement to consider career planning within individual units to ensure that soldiers and officers get the opportunity to fill posts required for subsequent promotion.
If only because there will be no promotion. Or, and let's be blunt about this, jumping out of aircraft.
 
#7
polar said:
Still on the selfish part of my post: If the TA was a civvie firm, they'd move me to the Sqn to the North (they're taking on my current Sqns role) but I'd still have the oppurtunity to move back to my current location. In the current TA world, its more likely I move to the troop thats re-roleing within my current Sqn (so I more than likely loose rank but Sqn maintains it's numbers)
If it was a civvy firm someone in HR would have been promoted for finding an excuse to sack your whining ass. :roll:
 
#9
polar said:
It would be so simple if we did, I go for a year out from my current branch letting someone else into my slot. I go to a remote new branch and help train them up, get an excellent report and then return with a promotion. (Also proving I've got over a number of personnal problems during this period). Suppose this is like problems Bde Training Teams face on returning to their unit.

If it was a civvie company it'd be a very good plan, I can be replaced in my current region easily and I'd bring a lot of experience to a branch in another region, but with the TA my hard work would be ignored outside the new branch/region and returning to my current branch/region means I re-start at the bottom of the pile (with any previous baggage intact).

Suppose put another way, a CSM/SSM or SQMS/CQMS (and others) can do their job very well regardless of their cap badge. So why should WO2 Bloggs have to move to a unit 100 miles away, when another corps in the same TAC and/or city has a vacancy (in another corps/regt) and they are best for the job?
You must be on Fuller's Earth cause you aint on this one chucky egg.
 
#11
polar said:
It would be so simple if we did, I go for a year out from my current branch letting someone else into my slot. I go to a remote new branch and help train them up, get an excellent report and then return with a promotion. (Also proving I've got over a number of personnal problems during this period). Suppose this is like problems Bde Training Teams face on returning to their unit.

If it was a civvie company it'd be a very good plan, I can be replaced in my current region easily and I'd bring a lot of experience to a branch in another region, but with the TA my hard work would be ignored outside the new branch/region and returning to my current branch/region means I re-start at the bottom of the pile (with any previous baggage intact).

Suppose put another way, a CSM/SSM or SQMS/CQMS (and others) can do their job very well regardless of their cap badge. So why should WO2 Bloggs have to move to a unit 100 miles away, when another corps in the same TAC and/or city has a vacancy (in another corps/regt) and they are best for the job?
The civvie equivalent of this is that you quit your job and dissapear for a year and then you want to return to the company and force out the person that the company took time and trouble to replace you with. F and O are in the sentence you would be greeted with.
Such is life :(
 
#12
Maninthestreet said:
The civvie equivalent of this is that you quit your job and dissapear for a year and then you want to return to the company and force out the person that the company took time and trouble to replace you with. F and O are in the sentence you would be greeted with.
Such is life :(
Sorry don't follow your logic at all, the civvie and regular equivalent is going to work within the company elsewhere [an example would be moving from BT Sheffield to BT Darlington and then coming back] or getting a posting to another unit. My point is you wouldn't be career fowled as a civvie or a regular if you did this, who's gonna get the next step up??
Person in neighbouring Sqn or persons already within regiment.

F+O!!!! You highlight the problem so eloquently, so its regt first and complete disregard to service with the TA and same Cap Badge. Regt system went many many years ago, why some people in the TA wish to perpetuate it I don't know

Are we not allowed one army topics if it involves SNCO's?
 
#13
No wonder I never went for officer.

Problem: 4 vacanies, 4 applicatants

(Arrse) Officer Solution: Demote 2 applicants and return them to troop/platoons and leave the two vacancies with unqualfied stand ins, who cares it's in a different regiment.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#14
You are an SNCO? God help your mess - it must be a bundle of laughs!

What you are asking for is to pick and chose which appointment you wish to fill entirely dependant on it's location, without regard for cap badge, Corps or who else within that existing unit may be lined up for that post. How would you feel if someone from outside your unit suddenly appeared in the post you covet just because they lived close and it would suit their career aspirations? Feel a little annoyed, I would guess.

The answer within your unit is simple - if there are 3 of you going for the same post, run a grading board. Best man for the job gets offered it, losers get the option of a posting elsewhere, or hoping to pick up the position the next time the job is boarded. It pays to be a winner.

(PS My Bn HQ and the nearest other company is nearly 200 miles away, and we still have to manage careers within a Coy location.)
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#15
Idrach said:
The_Duke said:
Sounds like a great plan, once the TA becomes the single cap badge, single function "Reserve Army". Then there will be no requirement to consider career planning within individual units to ensure that soldiers and officers get the opportunity to fill posts required for subsequent promotion.
If only because there will be no promotion. Or, and let's be blunt about this, jumping out of aircraft.
Or whole brigades of non-deployable ration thieves (sorry, members of a broad church) either. It will be a brave new world I tell you! :wink:
 
#16
The_Duke said:
Idrach said:
If only because there will be no promotion. Or, and let's be blunt about this, jumping out of aircraft.
Or whole brigades of non-deployable ration thieves (sorry, members of a broad church) either. It will be a brave new world I tell you! :wink:
Do we actually have those? I mean, even 2 Sigs where we all knew the kit was pointlessly out of date (like battalions of parachute infantry 8) ) sent people out to all 3 actual ops and to TOSCA.

The old and bold or the knackered? Do we want rid of people with experience? Do the regs have enough quality people spare to properly cadre us? Who's going to do all the damn paperwork?

Or are we just hunting around for a "simple solution" and are then going to pretend it is relevant to our actual problem - a complete lack of any statement of strategic requirement for the TA to meet.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#17
Idrach said:
The_Duke said:
Idrach said:
If only because there will be no promotion. Or, and let's be blunt about this, jumping out of aircraft.
Or whole brigades of non-deployable ration thieves (sorry, members of a broad church) either. It will be a brave new world I tell you! :wink:
Do we actually have those? I mean, even 2 Sigs where we all knew the kit was pointlessly out of date (like battalions of parachute infantry 8) ) sent people out to all 3 actual ops and to TOSCA.

Parachute infantry are still infantry, and deploying regularly. Ergo, VFM. 2 Sigs to 3 Ops and TOSCA - but how many? Just "some" is not really an answer - what percentage of people drawing pay have deployed?

The old and bold or the knackered? Do we want rid of people with experience? Do the regs have enough quality people spare to properly cadre us? Who's going to do all the damn paperwork?

Remember, we are talking about the BNW. Enablers start with an "E" - like the Epsilons. Made insensible by regular doses of alcohol, useful only for the most menial tasks. Yup, sounds about right.

Or are we just hunting around for a "simple solution" and are then going to pretend it is relevant to our actual problem - a complete lack of any statement of strategic requirement for the TA to meet.

No we are wondering who has pished in Polar's tea today so that he comes on here with yet another of his pointless, self centred, meaningless rants.
 
#18
The_Duke said:
Idrach said:
The_Duke said:
Idrach said:
If only because there will be no promotion. Or, and let's be blunt about this, jumping out of aircraft.
Or whole brigades of non-deployable ration thieves (sorry, members of a broad church) either. It will be a brave new world I tell you! :wink:
Do we actually have those? I mean, even 2 Sigs where we all knew the kit was pointlessly out of date (like battalions of parachute infantry 8) ) sent people out to all 3 actual ops and to TOSCA.

Parachute infantry are still infantry, and deploying regularly. Ergo, VFM. 2 Sigs to 3 Ops and TOSCA - but how many? Just "some" is not really an answer - what percentage of people drawing pay have deployed?

And signallers are still signallers and are deploying regularly - in formed units (OCULUS), as IRs within and outwith role. I don't honestly have the %age figures for the Brigade, and if I had, I probably shouldn't post them here - but over 20% of our unit mobilised last year and most of our military tasks don't require mob. The point about 2 Sigs was that kit issued to the units was pointlessly old and we knew it - it didn't stop people deploying and doing an adequate job.

Just checking that you do know I put the bit in about your expensive and obsolete method of getting to the FEBA just to wind you up?


The old and bold or the knackered? Do we want rid of people with experience? Do the regs have enough quality people spare to properly cadre us? Who's going to do all the damn paperwork?

Remember, we are talking about the BNW. Enablers start with an "E" - like the Epsilons. Made insensible by regular doses of alcohol, useful only for the most menial tasks. Yup, sounds about right.

Sorry. TLA not understood this station. Yes, there are people in most TA and reg units that could be got rid of without damaging operational effectiveness. I'll bet you a pint you've got some of these in the Para Reg too.

Or are we just hunting around for a "simple solution" and are then going to pretend it is relevant to our actual problem - a complete lack of any statement of strategic requirement for the TA to meet.

No we are wondering who has pished in Polar's tea today so that he comes on here with yet another of his pointless, self centred, meaningless rants.

Okay, I'll shut up now and let people get back on topic. Speaking of which, I suppose the answer is "One Army" - roles at RD are rarely E2 and the admin system isn't set up to cope with it. Hence the recent rush of regimental amalgamations as we had largely reduced to one battalion regiments which clearly makes effective career planning much harder.
 
#19
While I’m not 100% sure what polar is on about I would add one comment to debate. Before I resigned my Commission in 2008 (having been on the Unposted list since mid-2006 for work reasons) a major whinge I would hear was relating to prospects for TA returning from Ops/FTRS, especially if the latter & it had been protracted.

Many of my acquaintance found that even with gleaming OJAR/SJARs/Op Insert slips they were in effect a long way behind the promotion curve. This came about as Units wanted to have a look at the individual before giving them promotions or appointments, so in effect the full-time experience was treated like a sabbatical, no credit given for what had been achieved & people who had been junior to the individual had been promoted ahead of them.

One person* I knew had it suggested that they would have to take a drop in their substantive rank & revert to a post with a lower level of responsibility. This wouln’t happen to a Regular who is posted every few years, so why to a member of the TA?

*No, not me. I knew I would almost certainly never come back from Unposted & had career-fouled myself! At least it means I have weekends for my family & friends, the Rugby & could tell employers honestly that I might not have to take a protracted holiday somewhere hot at short notice…
 
#20
CaptainPlume said:
Many of my acquaintance found that even with gleaming OJAR/SJARs/Op Insert slips they were in effect a long way behind the promotion curve. This came about as Units wanted to have a look at the individual before giving them promotions or appointments, so in effect the full-time experience was treated like a sabbatical, no credit given for what had been achieved & people who had been junior to the individual had been promoted ahead of them.

One person* I knew had it suggested that they would have to take a drop in their substantive rank & revert to a post with a lower level of responsibility. This wouln’t happen to a Regular who is posted every few years, so why to a member of the TA?
Which part of "I'll shut up now" do I not understand? :?

This is amazing. I've had a serious civvy career foul 'cause of the number of times I've been away over the past couple of years but even though it has also limited my ability to do my unit staff job (not now able to get time off for courses etc), the hierarchy seem to be fine about it. Hasn't stopped them giving me a sh1tty (albeit important and relatively senior) job for the next tour, though.
 

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