Why Britain needs to re-instate the death penalty

I absolutely disagree, the victims family is the least objective arbiter of justice. The archetype of blind, dispassionate, objective justice is there for a very good reason.
You keep avoiding the point... We both agree that the death penalty is morally wrong. How is it morally right to let a killer out of prison ??
 
mention clear cut cases such as lee Rigby's killers
You keep harping on about this, but miss the obvious point that his killers wanted to be killed by cop to (in their eyes) be martyrs of Islam. It didn’t go to their plan, capital punishment would achieve their aim.

The current situation is that they will languish in jail with the constant reminder they have failed Allah.

What would have happened if the Lee Rigby scenario had been slightly different and they had failed in their attempt to kill him? Let’s say they dropped their weapons and ran away then Lee Rigby picked up one of the weapons and threw it, hitting one and killing them. This is murder.
 
You keep harping on about this, but miss the obvious point that his killers wanted to be killed by cop to (in their eyes) be martyrs of Islam. It didn’t go to their plan, capital punishment would achieve their aim.

The current situation is that they will languish in jail with the constant reminder they have failed Allah.

What would have happened if the Lee Rigby scenario had been slightly different and they had failed in their attempt to kill him? Let’s say they dropped their weapons and ran away then Lee Rigby picked up one of the weapons and threw it, hitting one and killing them. This is murder.
Clearly it would not be murder, as they already tried to kill him with a car before drawing some of their weapons.

The police result at London Bridge was cheaper and drew a line under the issue for all concerned. The idea that it was better that Rigbys murderers survived being shot to cost us a bloody fortune I find utterly bizzare.
 
Clearly it would not be murder, as they already tried to kill him with a car before drawing some of their weapons.
It would, that’s why I used the hypothetical situation, otherwise it doesn’t work in this debate.
 
You keep harping on about this, but miss the obvious point that his killers wanted to be killed by cop to (in their eyes) be martyrs of Islam. It didn’t go to their plan, capital punishment would achieve their aim.

The current situation is that they will languish in jail with the constant reminder they have failed Allah.

What would have happened if the Lee Rigby scenario had been slightly different and they had failed in their attempt to kill him? Let’s say they dropped their weapons and ran away then Lee Rigby picked up one of the weapons and threw it, hitting one and killing them. This is murder.
Re your last point Dings, Yep, it is - but wouldn't under the yellow card ROE plus it would show mitigation... not harping on or missing the point about Martyrdom either mate as you could also apply that to the dick who knifed the Cop by the House of Lords or those 3 feckers at the Borough, i'm just looking for a reply that it realistic re the LR scenario or where there is absolutely no question of who committed the murder, where there's no genuine mitigation or where the murder is delibrate, premediated - say where that bod murdered his writer partner and through her body in the cess spit - and where the killer confesses and the evidence is proven BRD.

Re LR again, if the shot placement or ammo had been fit for purpose the killers would be dead - and so what if they are martyrs, seeing as they class all who were killed by the West/infidels, as Martyrs whether it was collateral or targeted, do you think that the Muslim Extremists/ ISIS type bods are going to get any angrier due to yet another Martyr to the cause?.....and you never mentioned how much of a deterrent capital punishment would be for the gangs who go around casually knifing people.
 
You keep harping on about this, but miss the obvious point that his killers wanted to be killed by cop to (in their eyes) be martyrs of Islam. It didn’t go to their plan, capital punishment would achieve their aim.

The current situation is that they will languish in jail with the constant reminder they have failed Allah.

What would have happened if the Lee Rigby scenario had been slightly different and they had failed in their attempt to kill him? Let’s say they dropped their weapons and ran away then Lee Rigby picked up one of the weapons and threw it, hitting one and killing them. This is murder.
Not disagreeing with your (above) post dingerr, but I'd like to ask about a different case, and a very different murderer, as to the viability of him being hanged..

Dale Cregan

Dale Cregan - Wikipedia
 
We do have this as per below.....

You and others , in front of your very own eyes, witness a murder - the murderer waited for the Cops to arrive and arrest him/her and shouted out to the told the Cops 'I did it' , there was even film of the events , taken by a passer by - the evidence of that murder was collected from the scene , you were on the Jury or called as a witness to court, the case was proven BRD by the prosecution and in your own mind you know that this this person was guilty, would you convict the person of murder knowing that they were going to hang? .. or does you own views againgst capital punishment mean that you be happy to convict for a life sentence only .

You mention mental illness but what if the defence doesn't use this argument - what if the defendant freely admits that the did it for a financial, political reason or revenge, etc and that they the knew the likely sentence if they were found guilty but didn't care?

You mention 'a fair trial', so one when the person is convicted Beyond Reason Doubt based on the evidence presented at the time?

You've convinced yourself that we still convict too many innocent people yet you show no figures or info to support this, the conviction rate or the rate of those who have had a verdict overturned ? - you talk about evidence being fabricated but i've even said that in cases where a death sentence could apply, the evidence used to convict would be raked over far more rigidly by the defence .....

In your own time.
Obviously we don't have the death penalty here but they do in the US, here's a list of 164 people convicted BRD and sentenced to death who were later found to be innocent and released. The American judicial procedure is similar to our own in operation if not sentencing.
Innocence: List of Those Freed From Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center
 
Obviously we don't have the death penalty here but they do in the US, here's a list of 164 people convicted BRD and sentenced to death who were later found to be innocent and released. The American judicial procedure is similar to our own in operation if not sentencing.
Innocence: List of Those Freed From Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center
yep, i agree with you.

I also think that it's pretty well known that with the abundance and weirdness of their state laws, racial nonsense, etc and utter biffs in their law system , public defender shite, etc...it's not really useful or relevant to use this example compared to the few numbers of incorrect verdicts regarding capital punishment or murder convictions in the UK...your homework is to show how many murder convictions have been overturned in the UK since 1973 as this figure would be far more relevant, no?

Now, when you look at the *US Population and work out the actual percentage of those freed from death row - can you do that? - you'll be able to see that the figures/link that you put up was pretty fecking pointless, much like if i had put up the list of people freed from death row in China or North Korea, as what would that prove? , that they NEVER got it wrong?

Thanks for your imput anyway

*325.7 Million in 2017
 
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Not disagreeing with your (above) post dingerr, but I'd like to ask about a different case, and a very different murderer, as to the viability of him being hanged..

Dale Cregan

Dale Cregan - Wikipedia
You’re looking at this as an individual, the law has to apply to all, as much as there are people like this out there, ultimately he has committed murder (on four counts), there are others who have been convicted of murder that have turned out to be innocent, if you hang Cregan for murder, the same law applies to all other murders and therefore people who have been convicted then later turn out to be innocent will be hanged.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Hmm? I'm not nashing my teeth at all, just using my reasoning based on living in a place where knife crime is very real while your own view appears to be based on living in a sleepy village , and yet all you do is tut, cross your arms and look cross while using sneery emotive words and phrases to emphaizde your points as if this represents some kind of objectivity..... which of course, it doesn't..

I've not once said 'lets hang some prisoners' ....i've pretty much stuck with the idea that if evidene is enough to convict someone of murder then why isn't it enough to hang them?...you quote rough justice and or miscariage of Justice, i mention clear cut cases such as lee Rigby's killers - that you ignore - and i stick to the comment that if the jury think that the evidence is dogdy, don't convict to start with.


I did also mention several posts back, that if those in gangs saw a few of their mate swing, that may not be so casual when going stabby, stabby over a post code/Endzs , and as for your rehab comments......it shows that you have never known anyone close who was chased down by a gang and stabbed to deaths nor live in an environment where the use of a knife is common - people who us them don't care as they know that currently the worse they'll get is jail time then eventually will be out.

.....and as you often sound and write like a petulant teen, if I do sound like your old fella, I pity him having to put up with a tantrum throwing brat like you who can't see that you own behaviour is no better than what you are accusing him off.

Meh
More or less as predicted. After all it is a clearly established fact that knife crime is totally absent from anywhere besides London in the UK isn't it. Congratulations at being the first person I've ever bothered to ignore you tedious waste of grey matter.
 
More or less as predicted. After all it is a clearly established fact that knife crime is totally absent from anywhere besides London in the UK isn't it. Congratulations at being the first person I've ever bothered to ignore you tedious waste of grey matter.

so, if you do live in stabby Central and know of victims close to home, why are you anti capital punishment for people who'd stab you or those you cared about in a second and not give a feck about it? ..could i tbe it's because you have no idea or experience of the impact that these incidents cause and therefore are very happy to pontificate about it and the punishment for stabbing someone to death ,from the safety of your armchair?


On ignore eh?...the IT version of a flounce and a voiceless way of admitting defeat, but nah, not having it, self justifying bores like you can't sleep at night without going into hissy fits and fretting over what others may be saying about you.

.....and you won't be able to see this below if im on ignore... which im not ;-) which shows reported incidents per 100,00 per UK area....ooh, look, you can even see you the knife crime rates for your little piece of England - then compare it to dat dere Lunden.


Knife crime statistics - Commons Library briefing - UK Parliament
 
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Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
My major problem with capital punishment is topping an innocent.

My major problem with life inside is lack of sanction.
I agree, capital punishment is not morally right. But, letting a killer out of prison is morally even worse.
Not sure who you imagine you're agreeing with, but I sincerely doubt it's me.
For a start I have no moral problems with the taking of life per se.


To reiterate #744:

My concern about having capital punishment is ensuring it's only the guilty who are so punished.

My concern about not having capital punishment is there is no further punishment available should the convict continue to offend while serving his whole life tariff.
 
yep, i agree with you.

I also think that it's pretty well known that with the abundance and weirdness of their state laws, racial nonsense, etc and utter biffs in their law system , public defender shite, etc...it's not really useful or relevant to use this example compared to the few numbers of incorrect verdicts regarding capital punishment or murder convictions in the UK...your homework is to show how many murder convictions have been overturned in the UK since 1973 as this figure would be far more relevant, no?

Now, when you look at the *US Population and work out the actual percentage of those freed from death row - can you do that? - you'll be able to see that the figures/link that you put up was pretty fecking pointless, much like if i had put up the list of people freed from death row in China or North Korea, as what would that prove? , that they NEVER got it wrong?

Thanks for your imput anyway

*325.7 Million in 2017
Hope this list helps then, scroll down for the detailed uk list
List of miscarriage of justice cases - Wikipedia
Executing just one innocent person may seem to be acceptable for some people but it's a bit of a pisser if you or a family member are that person.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Executing just one innocent person may seem to be acceptable for some people but it's a bit of a pisser if you or a family member are that person.
Does this include in-laws, and do I get to choose ?
 
Hope this list helps then, scroll down for the detailed uk list
List of miscarriage of justice cases - Wikipedia
Executing just one innocent person may seem to be acceptable for some people but it's a bit of a pisser if you or a family member are that person.
Ah, that's better , although you'll see that the list actually includes other crimes rather than just murders, and is less then one person per year from a UK population of 60 million.

Fair try though, but still not ready to jump in with the bigs boys ........

As for wrongly executing one person being a pi55er, yep.....same as seeing your son's smirking killers being let out after a relativley short time too - which is also happening.

I gather that you grasped that what was used to convict someone for murder in 1908 has changed a bit now?

Anymore irrelevant or misleading links that you want to put up? ..cos you've only done it twice so far
 
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Not sure who you imagine you're agreeing with, but I sincerely doubt it's me.
For a start I have no moral problems with the taking of life per se.


To reiterate #744:

My concern about having capital punishment is ensuring it's only the guilty who are so punished.

My concern about not having capital punishment is there is no further punishment available should the convict continue to offend while serving his whole life tariff.
Given nobody can guarantee the innocent aren't punished, by that logic, my assumption was you were against the death penalty. On your second point, I was trying to link your commentary with my wider point about, the morality of releasing a convicted murderer.

A lot of people who oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, have failed to make any moral defence of releaseing murderers, because there is none, that don't show the prisoners rights been put above the rest of us.
 
As for wrongly executing one person being a pi55er, yep.....same as seeing your son's smirking killers being let out after a relativley short time too - which is also happening.
The solution is harsher penalties, but not the death sentence.

I have no issues with people having to spend a life behind bars, hard labour or/and corporal punishments.
 
A lot of people who oppose the death penalty on moral grounds, have failed to make any moral defence of releaseing murderers, because there is none, that don't show the prisoners rights been put above the rest of us.
It’s two separate issues, why does someone opposing the death sentence have to defend the release of prisoners?
 
It’s two separate issues, why does someone opposing the death sentence have to defend the release of prisoners?
Cause and effect... If the death penalty is abolished, then what happens to that killer afterwards, should be discussed by those who supported an end to the death penalty. Else, you have made a moral judgement and divorced yourselves of the consequences.
 

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