Why Army Cadet "Force"?

Should we be titled:

  • Army/Combined Cadet Force (A/CCF)?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Army/Combined Cadet Corps (A/CCC)?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
Anyone any idea why we have the Army Cadet Force rather than the Army Cadet Corps?

RAF equivalent is Air Training Corps, Naval equivalent is Sea Cadet Corps.

The ACF isn't really a "Force" so surely it should be a Corps.

Is there some historic reason for this?
 
#4
FaceLikeAPingPongBall said:
And the Combined Cadet FORCE, What's that all about with both RN, Army and RAF sections?
A good point, which I raised with various brass in the days when I was involved in coaching CCF rifle teams. No-one knew the answer, and several agreed that "Corps" - as in Officer Training Corps, to which the CCF is historically linked - would be more appropriate.

Interestingly, the vast majority of public schools refer informally to their CCF units as "the Corps", and always have; while most state-funded schools simply call it "the CCF". I suspect the former are, perhaps unconsciously, harking back to OTC days.
 

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#5
Not completly relevant but I understand that most Constabularies now prefer Police Serice to 'Force' because 'force' is not PC enough for them.

If we were looking for a name now we probably would not choose Force, but what sort of wishy washy message would it send out if it was changed for PC reasons.
 
#6
sknn said:
Not completly relevant but I understand that most Constabularies now prefer Police Serice to 'Force' because 'force' is not PC enough for them.

If we were looking for a name now we probably would not choose Force, but what sort of wishy washy message would it send out if it was changed for PC reasons.
Most - perhaps now all - UK police forces have become police "services" for the PC reasons you give.

Even NI, whose RUC (GC) was the nearest thing to a gendarmerie that the UK ever had, now has the "Police Service of Northern Ireland". "NI Police Service", which would have been a less tortuous phrase, would instantly have become "nips", so no-go there. But PSNI is still a routinely armed gendarmerie, to all intents and purposes.

Within the Cadet Movement, the term "Force" sits uneasily, because none of its members apart from adult officers and NCOs would ever have been called upon to use force of any kind in any situation.

"Corps" would, IMHO, have been far more appropriate, and I wonder if anyone knows why it wasn't officially adopted. (Although, as noted above, a lot of CCF units have always been casually know as Corps.)
 
#7
Army Cadet Corps would have given the abbreviation ACC which was already taken for many years by that fine body of craftsmen and women bound together by their motto "We Sustain-When it'smoking it's cooking,when it's burning it's done" :D
 
#9
galgenberg said:
Army Cadet Corps would have given the abbreviation ACC which was already taken for many years by that fine body of craftsmen and women bound together by their motto "We Sustain-When it'smoking it's cooking,when it's burning it's done" :D
good one.


re the name force, I would imagine when it was created , it was a FORCE for good, since then it still remains so and the name is retained for traditional and practical reasons.

our mission statement hasn't changed, we are still a force for good.
 
#10
semper said:
galgenberg said:
Army Cadet Corps would have given the abbreviation ACC which was already taken for many years by that fine body of craftsmen and women bound together by their motto "We Sustain-When it'smoking it's cooking,when it's burning it's done" :D
good one.


re the name force, I would imagine when it was created , it was a FORCE for good, since then it still remains so and the name is retained for traditional and practical reasons.

our mission statement hasn't changed, we are still a force for good.
Agreed. ACF and CCF are very much forces for good.

And "if it is not necessary to change, then it is necessary not to change."
 
#12
caubeen said:
Interestingly, the vast majority of public schools refer informally to their CCF units as "the Corps", and always have; while most state-funded schools simply call it "the CCF". I suspect the former are, perhaps unconsciously, harking back to OTC days.
There is a historical reason behind referring to the CCF as 'corps' at public school (esp. Eton.)
http://www.etoncollege.com/eton.asp?di=254
The Eton College CCF was founded in 1860 as the Eton College Rifle Corps as a volunteer battalion of the Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (4 Ox and Bucks LI (V)) at a time when it was thought that Napoleon III was threatening to invade Britain. It was the first school corps of its kind. On 16th June 1930 King George V presented the Corps with its new colours when it became the Eton College Officers’ Training Corps. Later when schools’ OTCs became Combined Cadet Forces, the Duke of Gloucester presented the Corps with new colours in June 1961. The old colours now hang in the ante-chapel of College Chapel.
That should answer your question.
 
#13
galgenberg said:
Army Cadet Corps would have given the abbreviation ACC which was already taken for many years by that fine body of craftsmen and women bound together by their motto "We Sustain-When it'smoking it's cooking,when it's burning it's done" :D

choke..choking on a pringle....... :clap:
 
#14
datumhead said:
galgenberg said:
Army Cadet Corps would have given the abbreviation ACC which was already taken for many years by that fine body of craftsmen and women bound together by their motto "We Sustain-When it'smoking it's cooking,when it's burning it's done" :D

choke..choking on a pringle....... :clap:
Bet you didn't cough yours all over the moniter! Last time I used that expression I was given the choice of a slap or pan bash by the head slop jock.

If I'd known he was an ex Para abd boxer who transfered out because of a dodgy knee, I'd have taken the pan bash every which way til christmas!
 
#15
A good question viz Force over Corps.

I actually think this is a view/thought/discussion that could benefit from having a poll, so forgive my "tinkering", but I'll add one.

Also, is there a body of opinion to move it to another forum more visible to RFCA or do you want me to leave it here?

Woopert
 
#16
At the end of the day, do the kids care, or is it the adults getting their knickers in a twist?

Remember why it exists and then use that for how it exists, rather than the other way round!
 
#17
Oneshot said:
At the end of the day, do the kids care, or is it the adults getting their knickers in a twist?

Remember why it exists and then use that for how it exists, rather than the other way round!
Beat me to it. I was in the 'Corps' at school but it was the CCF...

'Corps' is a word that non-military types cannot pronounce or comprehend (I am sick of hearing it mispronounced on the TV or wireless).

'Force' on the other hand makes sense and might form a part of the attraction for the kids (remember them) that corps will not achieve?
 
#18
Oneshot said:
At the end of the day, do the kids care, or is it the adults getting their knickers in a twist?

Remember why it exists and then use that for how it exists, rather than the other way round!
No knickers in a twist. I just thought it curious and wondered how it came to be called what it is. I don't have any connection to ACF.
 
#19
Carcass said:
caubeen said:
Interestingly, the vast majority of public schools refer informally to their CCF units as "the Corps", and always have; while most state-funded schools simply call it "the CCF". I suspect the former are, perhaps unconsciously, harking back to OTC days.
There is a historical reason behind referring to the CCF as 'corps' at public school (esp. Eton.)
http://www.etoncollege.com/eton.asp?di=254
The Eton College CCF was founded in 1860 as the Eton College Rifle Corps as a volunteer battalion of the Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (4 Ox and Bucks LI (V)) at a time when it was thought that Napoleon III was threatening to invade Britain. It was the first school corps of its kind. On 16th June 1930 King George V presented the Corps with its new colours when it became the Eton College Officers’ Training Corps. Later when schools’ OTCs became Combined Cadet Forces, the Duke of Gloucester presented the Corps with new colours in June 1961. The old colours now hang in the ante-chapel of College Chapel.
That should answer your question.
Thanks for the link and quote; and as I'd suspected, the apellation stems from old OTC days/school units.

In my day the CCF was always "the Corps", but increasingly most schools, and schoolboy cadets, appear to call it "the CCF".

It remains a "force" for good, IMHO.
 
#20
woopert said:
A good question viz Force over Corps.

I actually think this is a view/thought/discussion that could benefit from having a poll, so forgive my "tinkering", but I'll add one.

Woopert
Do you think RFCA is a democracy?

Have a little think of the cost to do a name change. What of the charity status, what of the charter, affiliations act of parliament etc, suspect they will have to be rewritten and approved by the various bodies all which could reject it and 'we' end up with a watered down version or worst nothing.

Be a good chap and don't tinker above your knowledge...;-)
 

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