Why are armourers failing initial?

#1
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough shit.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.

My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
 
#4
I see Bordon hasn't changed too much then. Never mind, if you fail your course you can always be a vm.
TB
 
#5
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough s***.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.

My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
Did you fail a module then? Or was it your boyfriend?

As for bringing back the passion for the course - you get from a course what you put in! Grows some fooking onions, knuckle-down, learn the syllabus, PASS THE COURSE and get out of there as soon as you can. Once you get to your unit you'll have more than a instructor annoying you 9 to 5 to worry about. (You will need most of the skill you are taught on the course - not always work related. You'll be amazed at the amount you can make from repairing and making things.)

If you have thoughts, problems or suggestions to improve the course talk to the instructors or the HIO. There is a course debrief - all the instructors, HI and the ASM will attend.

CC_TA

As for being an apprentice first - I haven't seen much difference between crunchies and brats in the field.
 
#6
Yeah I agree, get mil instructors in. We have a surplus of highly trained guys out in the field force at the moment so Im sure they'll be in place by Naafi break tomorrow. What's more I bet they'd be itching to help all of the poor super tradesmen who have been so failed by the system after all I bet it was completely different in their day. They had one on one training, beds made for them, no duties and were tucked in by the HI every night. Whats more Id bet they'd do it for the money that the VT guys are on as they probably realise that they earn too much and that they'd like to help the MoD's coffers.

Sarcasm ends.

Surely if you are on a course with the Royals and you haven't received the same extra curricular training then there has been a breakdown in communication? Was it the fault of the HI or did he tell one of the RM that he would do it. If its the latter then I'd also suggest that your course needs to adopt a bit more of a "coursemanship" approach
 
#7
Well 007, as i said, some of the royal marines were not up to the required standard and they were given extra tuition and a second resit whilst the CFN got sweet FA - what are your views? Does it not seem strange that 50 % of capable soldiers are failing this course?
 
#8
Sparky: The RM were taken into the office seperately and told they would have extra tuition and a resit.

The CFN were told they would have an SRB and were subsequently removed from course.

Also there may be a shortage in the field, but im sure 5 tiffys out of the whole of the REME could be spared to train CFN.

The tiffys I have spoken to here agree that there is a problem.
 
#9
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
Well 007, as i said, some of the royal marines were not up to the required standard and they were given extra tuition and a second resit whilst the CFN got sweet FA - what are your views? Does it not seem strange that 50 % of capable soldiers are failing this course?
Get over it, there's a lot of times that you are going to feel hard done by and want to blame the system as being unfair. It is, it always has been and always will be. Ask any ex tiff who's been on a review board.
The basic course is hard, the upgrader course is harder the job can be demanding. But thats what you joined for right? Pass that course, take time to learn your trade because when you get out into the real world you cannot bluff and you will not have a back brief system to complain about your perceived lack of instruction at the basic stage.
TB
 
#10
The Marines are Navy for a start and come under a different budget so to speak, so it's not really Bordon's decision whether or not to keep them in, it's the Navy's. A lot of these guys have already been out in the field and have already proved their worth for a couple of extra chances, so that also helps compared to the Cfn who haven't even been anywhere yet. At the end of the day, you only get out what you put in and if you haven't revised enough then you get a big fat Freddy.

In my opinion there should be no resits unless it's special circumstances, if you wanted to be REME THAT bad then you would have put the effort in in the first place. What about the poor guys who have put a lot of effort in so that they don't get resits, do they think it's fair that other people can get away with not working as hard as them?

Wind your neck in, stop whining, and get revising. Just crack on with it and hopefully at the end of it you'll have passed your course. If you do have any questions then there's plenty of class 1s there who would love to pass on their knowledge.
 
#11
I agree with part of what you are saying, but if they want competent tradesmen in the field they have to invest more time in initial courses. Important subjects like weapons (what we joined for) need more time spent on them. Rushing through the course at 100mph is pointless because you forget everything you were taught previously. Also you cannot revise something you dont understand.
 
#12
A Ghost slowwwwwwwww down, I am a VM of near 20 years , my best mate is a cellar dwellar, he has been a civvi for nearly 15 years , we are same age , so work out when he got out!!The point is all the bench fitting, turning etc is fckucking important !!He made me two new firing pins for my shotgun in under half hour the other day !!You cant do that if you arnt trained!!
As for your RM friends, they are RM , and to be honest ATM needed in the field .............. if they can be prooven capabal then off they go!!
Your friends that were removed , removed to what? To anathor course or back coursed?(A little more info needed here)
Thoes here that say MAN IT are out of touch, the army is not the same as it was even as recently as 10 years ago , if what you say has happened then in todays climate its not OK, BUT......... realise the RM are fully trained RM and there for a course to support RM ( Mostly on OPs just now!!) and you guys arte CFN with a chance to go on ops and a career ahead of you for the most part.Could well be that these individuals are very important to their unit.
You guys will become important to your units in time , hope this makes sense
 
#13
Tytus_Barnowl said:
I see Bordon hasn't changed too much then. Never mind, if you fail your course you can always be a vm.
TB
Dont bite, Dont bite, Dont Bite, Dont Bite, Dont bite :x

CNUT, Obviously you meant VMB's :wink:

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

Damn and blast I bit :D

:judge:
 
#14
As for the comment about GPMG and pipe smoking you leave the daddy out of this! The lecturers for the most part I found whilst I was there were bloody good at what they did, I'd suggest to knuckle down and study hard instead of sitting around bitching about the initial course.
 
#15
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough s***.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.
My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
Having spent 18 months at Bordon and only leaving last year - I find your claims very hard to believe. Either that or you have decided to omit quite an amount of information!

If you fail an exam in Bordon, your instructor is supposed to show you where you went wrong on the exam and, if necessary, give you extra tuition. He/she is then supposed to inform the awards office that they have done so. The awards office will then allow your course senior to book a resit for all candidates. However, said course senior should be given the go ahead by the candidates who failed before doing this. The awards office insist on this to stop people like you blaming the system rather than their own shortfalls.

If a candidate fails a resit then the same process is carried out before 2nd resit is taken. Failure of this results in SRB 1 where the board will decide on whether or not to allow him/her to sit a third resit. Again, the same process of offered tuition etc etc has to be carried out before the awards office will allow the 3rd resit to be booked. Failure of 3rd resit results in SRB 2 and, inevitably, removal from course. Continual appearances at SRB 1 will eventually result in the candidate being removed from course at this stage.

Sounds like a very fair system to me!!! (Too fair in my opinion)

So how's about you provide us with ALL the facts instead of just the ones which make your argument sound slightly believable???
 
#16
The_IRON said:
Tytus_Barnowl said:
I see Bordon hasn't changed too much then. Never mind, if you fail your course you can always be a vm.
TB
Dont bite, Dont bite, Dont Bite, Dont Bite, Dont bite :x

CNUT, Obviously you meant VMB's :wink:

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:

Damn and blast I bit :D

:judge:
VMb my first trade :lol: I knew I would get a full circle bite at some stage. didnt think it would take 25 yrs.
8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
 
#17
Alpha-Mech said:
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough s***.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.
My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
Having spent 18 months at Bordon and only leaving last year - I find your claims very hard to believe. Either that or you have decided to omit quite an amount of information!

If you fail an exam in Bordon, your instructor is supposed to show you where you went wrong on the exam and, if necessary, give you extra tuition. He/she is then supposed to inform the awards office that they have done so. The awards office will then allow your course senior to book a resit for all candidates. However, said course senior should be given the go ahead by the candidates who failed before doing this. The awards office insist on this to stop people like you blaming the system rather than their own shortfalls.

If a candidate fails a resit then he/she goes to SRB 1 where the board will decide on whether or not to allow him/her to sit a second resit. The same process of offered tuition etc etc has to be carried out before the awards office will, again, allow the 2nd resit to be booked. Failure of 2nd resit results in SRB 2 and, inevitably, removal from course. Continual appearances at SRB 1 will eventually result in the candidate being removed from course at this stage.

Sounds like a very fair system to me!!! (Too fair in my opinion)

So how's about you provide us with ALL the facts instead of just the ones which make your argument sound slightly believable???

Firstly let me just say... you are not even an armourer so how would you know what happens at small arms?

Secondly may I point out that you can not see your marked exam papers neither can your instructors So how would they know where you went wrong to help correct. You are quite obviously talking shite, and have copied your reply out of a VT handbook, you civvie loving tool :D
 
#18
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
Firstly let me just say... you are not even an armourer so how would you know what happens at small arms?
I think that in Bordon the doors to the Small Arms building open and close in a similar way to the ones the VM's use. (There is a small possibility that other trades other than Armourers can enter the building. (Hydraulics???)

Also the ban on VM's talking to other trades and being able to see how their friends are getting on was lifted in the early 80's.

There is also the chance of retrading or dual trading.

CC_TA
 
#19
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
Alpha-Mech said:
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough s***.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.
My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
Having spent 18 months at Bordon and only leaving last year - I find your claims very hard to believe. Either that or you have decided to omit quite an amount of information!

If you fail an exam in Bordon, your instructor is supposed to show you where you went wrong on the exam and, if necessary, give you extra tuition. He/she is then supposed to inform the awards office that they have done so. The awards office will then allow your course senior to book a resit for all candidates. However, said course senior should be given the go ahead by the candidates who failed before doing this. The awards office insist on this to stop people like you blaming the system rather than their own shortfalls.

If a candidate fails a resit then he/she goes to SRB 1 where the board will decide on whether or not to allow him/her to sit a second resit. The same process of offered tuition etc etc has to be carried out before the awards office will, again, allow the 2nd resit to be booked. Failure of 2nd resit results in SRB 2 and, inevitably, removal from course. Continual appearances at SRB 1 will eventually result in the candidate being removed from course at this stage.

Sounds like a very fair system to me!!! (Too fair in my opinion)

So how's about you provide us with ALL the facts instead of just the ones which make your argument sound slightly believable???

Firstly let me just say... you are not even an armourer so how would you know what happens at small arms?

Secondly may I point out that you can not see your marked exam papers neither can your instructors So how would they know where you went wrong to help correct. You are quite obviously talking shite, and have copied your reply out of a VT handbook, you civvie loving tool :D
I don't recall ever stating that anyone gets to see marked exam papers! (Although your instructors do get to see the examiners notes at the very least.) I also don't recall ever stating that I had any idea of what goes on in the small arms wing!

If you read my post again you'll see that I was talking about the awards office and the processes they work by. Or are the small arms exams marked by someone other than those working downstairs in the kremlin (bldg 51)???? Please feel free to use your, obviously, superior knowledge to enlighten us all as to who it is that governs the exams within the small arms wing.

As for "civvy loving tool" - that only goes to prove a nerve has been struck. Truth hurts does it???? Get out of the bar (where the internet terminals are located) and go do something constructive before you make a complete ringpiece of yourself you silly little boy/girl.
 
#20
CC_TA said:
A_Ghost_at_SEME_Boredom said:
This is a question being pondered by many at this moment in time, inside and outside of SEME. But has anyone stopped and thought to ask the craftsman what he thinks?

Could it be the contrast in course length? Having to do 5 months worth of bench fitting, welding, sheet metal work and black smithing. Before moving on to learn how a weapon they have never seen before operates, how to fully strip/ assemble, what common damages are and go through the AESP word for word. Not only this they have to build up a weapon ready to fire and revise for a theory examination within 10 days of first laying eyes on the weapon.

On joining the REME as an armourer are you not supposed to be an apprentice? If you were I am sure your GPMG lecturers would not be wasting your precious time leaving you unattended whilst smoking a pipe and watching films in the classroom next door. An apprentice is told what mistake he has made and how to correct it; not having the weapon slammed back on his desk and told nothing more than “XUF!”
It seems to me that the old and bold lecturers there believe if you do not understand what I have told you the first time, then tough s***.

The lecturers love each other down at the small arms section don’t they? It is hard to concentrate when you have got the ‘Phil Mitchell look alike (Strongbow jacket)’ and ‘Mr Artisan Sgt for 22 years’ moaning about your previous instructors in front of your face. And what about Mr Heckler & Koch himself? - The HI waddling in every five minutes giving you the graph/timeline saying “You are here and you should be up here!”

You will be glad to know that the Royal Marines get preferential treatment on the ARMR course. In this instance 2 Royals and 2 Cfn failed a theory exam. The HI, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to personally give the failed students a lecture after hours to help them overcome the resit exam. The only problem is… he forgot to invite the Cfn.

My peers and I believe that the only way to overcome this problem is to get rid of VT. Military instructors should be installed. The examiner hung, drawn and quartered for his incompetence and the non essential shite at the start of the course shortened. Give us more time on the weapons. Finally bring the passion that we had before starting the course back! But we all know that is never going to happen. So Army, get used to the shortage.


A Ghost at SEME-Boredom.
Did you fail a module then? Or was it your boyfriend?

As for bringing back the passion for the course - you get from a course what you put in! Grows some fooking onions, knuckle-down, learn the syllabus, PASS THE COURSE and get out of there as soon as you can. Once you get to your unit you'll have more than a instructor annoying you 9 to 5 to worry about. (You will need most of the skill you are taught on the course - not always work related. You'll be amazed at the amount you can make from repairing and making things.)

If you have thoughts, problems or suggestions to improve the course talk to the instructors or the HIO. There is a course debrief - all the instructors, HI and the ASM will attend.

CC_TA

As for being an apprentice first - I haven't seen much difference between crunchies and brats in the field.
Ah i taught you well :wink:

couldnt have put your comments better myself. :D
 

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