Why 300m?

#1
Ok. I was holding forth earlier, about Sa80's to my sadly unenlightened Naval Brethren, and one asked why the maximum effective range for an individual firing an Sa80 is 300m (although frankly we all know you can get hits about 200m further out than that.. but I digress)

Annoyingly, I couldn't answer him off the top of my head, and now I can't find out why, so I was wondering if any of the ARRSE enlightened could share the knowledge a bit?
 
#2
300m rapid fire for the individual soldier, one shot every two seconds. 500m deliberate fire, one shot every six. The way I learnt it anyway, OTC though. I assume they're talking about your average trained soldier, not the hotshot off to sniper school tomorrow. Two seconds probably isn't considered enough time to resettle perfectly.
 
#3
The EBS has a battle zero on a Fig.11 at 300m, and in the kneeling position (about half a metre off the ground) the point-blank range comes to 300m if that helps. :?
 
#4
I know, i'm as confused as you chaps. It was asked by my DO, and he seemed to believe there was a specific reason the distance of 300m was chosen for the individual. I've thought up a few answers but I can't for the life of me find the actual thinking behind "300m"
 
#5
And so, yet another thread begins with a resonable questions and desends in to a bitch fest about how shite 5.56 is compered to 7.62.

I give it to page two before it starts.

As for your question im not sure. It may have something to do with optics, or somebody pulling a number out of their behind.
 
#6
What is the range of an AK type weapon? You know, the type of thing the orange forces were using when the SA80 was being designed/thrown together.

Edit: Let's not get hung up on which caliber AK type weapon.
 
#9
Wasn't that about the range that the red hoardes were supposed to debus from their battle taxis before charging forward and giving us a good seeing to ?
 
#10
I think and I'm usually wrong but isnt it the average battle range
 
#11
thecoops said:
I think and I'm usually wrong but isnt it the average battle range
Yup-it's the Battle range: calculated so that if the exact range of the target is not known, the trained soldier can expect to hit a man-sized target, no matter what the range is to that target (up to 600m).
 
#12
irlsgt said:
300m was the average range of a contact at the time the FN/SLR arrived
That's what I was led to believe - and the reason why you zeroed with your sights at 300m and the APWT included ranges out to 600m.

When the SA80 arrived, I was told that combat had changed, bringing the typical maximum range to 300m.

Reading between the lines, I'd surmise that the change is down to the nature of the conflict - the Cold War was a defensive action across large swathes of open countryside, more recent conflicts tend toward offensive and urban actions.
 
#14
walt_of_the_walts said:
Is it not to do with the zenith of the trajectory of the 5.56? At 300m it has risen to the level of the iron sights/SUSAT tip and after 300m it begins to drop down?
.............called the Culminating Point.
 
#15
It was explained to me thus:

Trained soldier can expect to get a grouping of at least 10cm size at 100m when under stressed, battle-like conditions.
This increases with range, i.e. 20cm at 200m, 30cm at 300m.

Average breadth of the human torso, front on to you = ~30cm.

Therefore if you can shoot that average grouping at 300m you can put your rounds into the average man's thorax. Which is quite likely to be useful under such circumstances.
 
#16
Grapevine, it is not laid down that Rapid is one shot every two seconds. 500m deliberate fire, one shot every six.
As long as you don't exceed 10rnds and 30rnds a minute (as per the PAM).

Blob
 
#17
FourZeroCharlie said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Is it not to do with the zenith of the trajectory of the 5.56? At 300m it has risen to the level of the iron sights/SUSAT tip and after 300m it begins to drop down?
.............called the Culminating Point.
Will this lead to a debate about whether the round was developed to suit the sight or the sight was developed to suit the round?
 
#18
blobmeister said:
Grapevine, it is not laid down that Rapid is one shot every two seconds. 500m deliberate fire, one shot every six.
As long as you don't exceed 10rnds and 30rnds a minute (as per the PAM).

Blob
...Fair enough, I (or my SAA instructor) was mentally translating it - it seems easier to imagine one shot every x seconds than x shots every minute.
 
#19
putteesinmyhands said:
FourZeroCharlie said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
Is it not to do with the zenith of the trajectory of the 5.56? At 300m it has risen to the level of the iron sights/SUSAT tip and after 300m it begins to drop down?
.............called the Culminating Point.
Will this lead to a debate about whether the round was developed to suit the sight or the sight was developed to suit the round?
It should'nt matter. A sight can be etched with with most any ballistic graticle: the old IWS was a case in point. It could be fitted to either GPMG or SLR. The zeroing principles were the same and the round was the same (obviously). However the ballistic properties were slightly different when fired from both weapons: tracer was a further variation.

Back on thread: the principle has always been that a trained soldier (ie an average shot) could be expected to hit a man-sized target at any range up to 600m with the sight set at 300m: the only other given was that he was firing his PW and he had zeroed the weapon.
 
#20
putteesinmyhands said:
irlsgt said:
300m was the average range of a contact at the time the FN/SLR arrived
That's what I was led to believe - and the reason why you zeroed with your sights at 300m and the APWT included ranges out to 600m.
IIRC you zero your sites to a distance at (over) the range distance, hein?

Ie you zero your sites to 300m at the 100/50/25 meter point.

BTW 300m was an accepted Mil distance long before either 5.56 or 7.62.

Vis-a-vis the 1920 Olympics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1920_Summer_Olympics

In 1896 it was 200m with a 300m Free Rifle event.
 

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