Whose Aircraft Carrier?

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
I am posting this in CA rather than just in RN or SDSR because at bottom it asks questions about just who our Forces will be fighting for in the future:

Spending review: In the future, Her Majesty’s Ships could be flying the ring of stars - Telegraph

Reading between the lines, the reason QE & PoW survived SDSR may be less to do with the admirals than our politicians' (of both parties) commitments to our European masters.

From a purely naval point of view it would seem never to have been the intention that the RN would mount a carrier task force of solely RN ships, but the carrier would be the leader of a group of European vessels which would include more or fewer RN warships and RFA as might happen on the day. There are some interesting questions in there about how to command a carrier whose main armament (if Rafaeles) may be non-British and whose personnel therefore may be largely non-English-speaking (bad enough if instead of the FAA the airgroup is total Crab, as explained by Sharkey Ward elsewhere).

However from an ARRSE point of view the key issue is whether in the future we are enlisting people to all colours of uniform purely as mercenaries for the European super-state, with their leaders having no say in whither they are deployed or what shall be required of them.

Of course there is no transparency in this as HMG has to make it look as if it is still in business, and perhaps more to the point knows that if it spelled out how it was merely acting as the agent for the Brussels bureaucracy, that might not be a vote-winner.
 
#2
...
And so the farce winds towards its end, where our straitened defence budget is completely distorted by our contractual obligation to proceed with the carriers (it would cost more to abandon the project than to carry on). In effect, when built, they will be operated jointly with the French, with French pilots flying French aircraft (the Rafales will cost twice as much as the ships themselves). So little money is left to buy the escorts needed by a carrier group that these will have to be provided by other EU navies, such as those of Spain or Italy.
...
Slightly less embarrassing than a carrier with no jets on it... slightly.
 
#3
I know it may be rather an unhelpful observation in a somewhat europhobic thread, but I've found that English is spoken by many French service personnel.
 
#4
I have a wonderful mental image of Christopher Booker angrily prodding his soft play typewriter with a prodding stick as he gets more and more angry. The guy is simply barking mad! I'm strongly eurosceptic, and have little time for the concept of a united europe, but the sort of rubbish that fills this guys column is just ridiculous.

I keep hearing people go on about this so-called European conspiracy, and how our lords and masters are planning some major thing. Could someone please tell me who these people are though? I've sat in lots of meetings to do with CVF issues on cost grounds, I've been to lots of meetings to do with policy and force levels, and heard lots of good reasons why X or Y should be done. Usually these meetings were attended by fairly senior people. At none of these meetings has the subject of the EU, or a european navy, or anything else that this lunatic goes on about been discussed.

I'd love to know who is behind the European conspiracy because I've yet to see any senior official make a defence policy decision based on some secret plan to further integrate us into Europe.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#5
'Many' but to live on board an RN warship without speaking the language could be tricky for the others. An embarked squadron would include all ranks and rates from Lt Cdr on down.

Meanwhile, as if on cue: French aircraft carrier set to defend Britain breaks down - Telegraph which is not only bad news for those relying on the availability of Rafaele support on Afghanistan, but asks a qn about whether CdeG can be kept running until QE takes over in 2020 PLUS whatever delays creep in as they always have done with British warship build (not like it was in Jackie Fisher's day).
 
#6
'Many' but to live on board an RN warship without speaking the language could be tricky for the others. An embarked squadron would include all ranks and rates from Lt Cdr on down.

Meanwhile, as if on cue: French aircraft carrier set to defend Britain breaks down - Telegraph which is not only bad news for those relying on the availability of Rafaele support on Afghanistan, but asks a qn about whether CdeG can be kept running until QE takes over in 2020 PLUS whatever delays creep in as they always have done with British warship build (not like it was in Jackie Fisher's day).
Sounds like the French Navy is up the same shit creak without a paddle as the RN.

IIRC isn't the French carrier a bit on the short size for the shiny birds to fly off it. They can do it but it's not ideal?
 
#7
Gordon "bottler" Brown is apparently going to make his first speech in the Commons since losing the election. He will speak in order to try and protect his constituents' jobs by saying the new carriers shouldn't be maintained/repaired in French ports. Whilst he may have a point, he is overlooking the fact that it was his government that invited the french to bid for the contract. Such an invite is, I am sure, in complete compliance with European law and I am sure we will be given every opportunity to bid to service french, german and other european ships.

Ode to Joy is a far catchier tune and words than Hearts of Oak anyway. Far more PC!
 
#8
'Many' but to live on board an RN warship without speaking the language could be tricky for the others. An embarked squadron would include all ranks and rates from Lt Cdr on down.

Meanwhile, as if on cue: French aircraft carrier set to defend Britain breaks down - Telegraph which is not only bad news for those relying on the availability of Rafaele support on Afghanistan, but asks a qn about whether CdeG can be kept running until QE takes over in 2020 PLUS whatever delays creep in as they always have done with British warship build (not like it was in Jackie Fisher's day).
Captain quoted as saying "Waiting for the nuclear reactor to cool down."
Bit like "Hang on, I'll put the kettle on and have a cuppa. The ship is less than 20 years old! And a recent refit. That's not value for money.:|
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
Just to poke the fire with a little afterthought, Portillo (who is half Spanish plus one other major character defect) started it all off but don't forget Bliar was the first British PM EVER to have the prospect of a follow-on career path. For him I think the carriers were a dowry or a bribe to get him the European Presidency and the loathsome Cherie the Euro First Ladyship. Mercifully that didn't work, but I think that was one of the threads in the development, along, for instance, with the Regionalisation of the UK so that when he landed the job there would soon be no UK nation to cause him embarrassment; plus of course his oh-so-convenient 'conversion' to RC.
 
#10
'Many' but to live on board an RN warship without speaking the language could be tricky for the others. An embarked squadron would include all ranks and rates from Lt Cdr on down..
However, FAA types who've been and played with l'Aeronavale report no such issues.
 
#11
Gordon "bottler" Brown is apparently going to make his first speech in the Commons since losing the election. He will speak in order to try and protect his constituents' jobs by saying the new carriers shouldn't be maintained/repaired in French ports. Whilst he may have a point, he is overlooking the fact that it was his government that invited the french to bid for the contract. Such an invite is, I am sure, in complete compliance with European law and I am sure we will be given every opportunity to bid to service french, german and other european ships.

Ode to Joy is a far catchier tune and words than Hearts of Oak anyway. Far more PC!
You could not make it up.

After months of non-presence the One Eyed Craven Son of the Manse is flagged to return to the mother of all Parliaments to deliver a speech based on no other premise than the presevation of the very kind of narrow and tribal self interest that resulted in the gross overspending that put us in the terrible mess we are in now.

Even then he cannot be straight: it is in support of a motion put by Thomas (Putting West Fife first) Docherty

McRuin will or so it is spun (assuming he does not bottle it again and end up under a desk pulling the legs off spiders whilst making Mlaar Mlaar noises) bleat that 50-year contract for the unaffordable pork barrel carriers maintenance contract be awarded to Rosyth.

Which oddly enough remains next to his Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath seat just as it did when the carriers contract was awarded
 
#12
I know it may be rather an unhelpful observation in a somewhat europhobic thread, but I've found that English is spoken by many French service personnel.
The French Air Force fly virtually all their fast jet missions communication with air traffic in English.
 
#13
You could not make it up.

After months of non-presence the One Eyed Craven Son of the Manse is flagged to return to the mother of all Parliaments to deliver a speech based on no other premise than the presevation of the very kind of narrow and tribal self interest that resulted in the gross overspending that put us in the terrible mess we are in now.

Even then he cannot be straight: it is in support of a motion put by Thomas (Putting West Fife first) Docherty

McRuin will or so it is spun (assuming he does not bottle it again and end up under a desk pulling the legs off spiders whilst making Mlaar Mlaar noises) bleat that 50-year contract for the unaffordable pork barrel carriers maintenance contract be awarded to Rosyth.

Which oddly enough remains next to his Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath seat just as it did when the carriers contract was awarded
Mc Ruin's return to the mother of all Parliaments should be a sight to see as this walking disaster area has no credibility left whatsoever.

Hopefully nature will intervene and this evil man will not survive to see the next general election.
 
#14
#15
But most French will REFUSE to speak English! Rem when we all went to Bosnia, the French put in the SMALLEST amount of troops but INSISTED that a French General commanded everything (which the rest of Europe allowed) then he publiclly stated that he will not put French troops in Danger as that was what the Dutch and British were for .....

Then when it all started going wrong he blamed everyone else ..... and when (yes, WHEN) we lock horns with Argintina again over the Falklands will the French allow French ships or aircraft to go??? I don't think so...


who was it was SELLING the exocet anti ship missles to Agintina DURING the war?????


Over our history England has fought more wars AGAINST France that the rest of the world put together. In French schools children are taught that in 1940 the BRITISH deserted France and let them to the mercy of the Germans .... it was OUR fault that nazi Germany conqueared France ... not theirs....


"An Englsihman thinks he is the best in Europe where are a Frenchman KNOWS he is!"
 
#16
But most French will REFUSE to speak English!
Au contraire mon ami

I find that if I make the effort to start the conversation in my best schoolboy French, they are invariably delighted I've made the effort and then promptly start helping me out in English when I get stuck.
 
#17
The idea still fails the most basic sovereignty litmus test: what would happen in Op Corporate II? I.e. if we want to send a fleet to sort out an issue of pure British national interest, how many froggies/ Germans/ EU-types in our mixed fleet are going to be happy about potentially laying down their lives?

The only reason that this idea can possibly be going ahead is that the political decision has already been made that, in the future, there will be no further "British sovereign interests" - only EU interests. Turning it that way round, how many British service personnel are going to be happy at the prospect of of getting slotted on behalf of the EU?
 
#19
Au contraire mon ami

I find that if I make the effort to start the conversation in my best schoolboy French, they are invariably delighted I've made the effort and then promptly start helping me out in English when I get stuck.
there are individual French men and women who are excellent, I reg sail with one, but it is their national physic that I am not sure of, I do not beleive that if we were to 'share' an aircraft carrier when we need it (e.g a falklands type conflict) then they WILL pull the plug on it. However if another Algeria or Ivory Coast situation then they would (of course) expect British lives to be lost.

I watched an excellent example on the BBC news channel just last week, the reporter was interviewing a woman about raising the pension age from 60 to 62. He asked the question:
"But the rest of Europe is all doing the same at 66 why should France be different?"

He got a disgusted look then her answer:

"We are France ...." she then spoke in French which I understand translated to "you are beneath us ..."


sharing an aircraft carrier or other assets like this is a MISTAKE!
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
#20
The fact that the pilots can speak air traffic control English isn't the point. If rafaeles are to operate from a British carrier then all the maintainers and other junior personnel in their squadron will have to live on board somehow and play their part in the life of the ship, including understanding and practising their damage control roles, taking orders in an emergency from whatever officer or senior rate happens to be around. NB both we and the Americans have had some near-disastrous carrier fires that were nothing to do with enemy action. Also the ship will have to carry appropriate stores and spares for the a/c and whatever airborne weapons the Fr use. Perhaps the Fr use the same hand signals for marshalling a/c on deck but I wouldn't know if that is the case.
 

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