Who really is to BLAME ?

We constantly moan, groan and to use a common word "winge" about the state of affairs within the AMS but I ask you to put aside your personal detestation for LE's, DE's, TFI's, PQO's, CMT's, QA's, Vets and the like just for an infinitesimal moment in time and ask yourself who is culpable for the ever esculating plight of our beloved service ?

Can anyone put a finger on one aspect alone or is it a gaggle of catastrophies all happening at the same time ? do we the Medical services really have such a lack of communications between departments ?

Answers on a matchbox please ?
I feel the problem really started with the " FRONT LINE FIRST " Defence cuts which saw the RAMC, among other corps, get hammered. CEG's were chopped and changed, units were shut rather quickly without any prior thought and amalgamations were forced upon all aspects of the corp. From this point everyone started to fight for there own survival. :evil:
I would have to agree there does seem to be an awful lot of WO2's upwards who only care about themselves and nothing else.

Stuff the troops where is my promotion type thing !


I think you can start from Sgt with that accusation.

I think alot of LE CMTs Officers have found themselves in a position of change and have forgotten very quickly where they came from.

Alot of Grey Mafia have also infiltrated the RAMC units and caused rot from within. (Consiracy theory #23/0985/247)
Also let us not forget the formation of the MDHU's, at this point we as a corp stopped being incharge of our own corp and became servants of the NHS. To confirm this all you have to do is look at the Frimley Park contract.
I agree with QMan - the Grey Mafia are obsessed with taking over - the worst case of cap-badge rivalry I've ever seen. They seem to think that there is a nursing answer to everything, which reflects the situation in the NHS where the nurses are equally rabid. The situation is not helped by the poor retention situation in the RAMC.

Why do we need a separate nursing corps anyway? Most of the nurses are little more than civvies in uniform since the MDHU debacle started (and seem quite happy with it), so we could make them all Sponsored Reserve TA as part of the RAMC.
ViroBono said:
Most of the nurses are little more than civvies in uniform since the MDHU debacle started (and seem quite happy with it),
As one of these civvies in uniform I have to agree & disagree with ViroBono.

I come from an age when we had 3 army, 1 navy, 3 RAF hospitals in the UK, 5 army in BFG, 1 in HK, TPMH & DCU. Now we have the CDM, 3 MDHUs, DMSRU, TPMH & DCU.

Its not a case of we are happy with it, its a case of we have little choice & accept the current situation & get on with it. Was I asked whether I wanted to re badge (NO) but I’m in a envious situation at the moment & see predominately service personnel & their dependants, but even my situation is under review in the near future to decide whether a uniformed service is required.

Yes the "esprit de corps" does seem to have gone south. All we can do now is accept the current situation with the DMS, & attempt to build on what’s left. It may seem that certain people are trying to empire build, but at the end of the day can it really be any worse than it is now.

A question we should be asking is why is the RAMC & QARANC recruitment & retention so bad, when the PMRAFN & QARNN are not only meeting recruitment targets with trained & untrained nursing staff & MA’s but retaining them as well, what are they doing which we aren’t.
May it has something to do with the amount of tours that the Army personnel are getting. They see their counterparts in the other services with whom they have trained, staying at home in the nice civillian enviroment with no military ethos. I wonder what I would do!!!

As for the MA's that may be because they are allowed to do the job that they are trained for and they get the pay to go with it. If I were a newly trained CMT I would consider getting out and joining the Navy. They have had the same training as the CMT but just spent longer on clinical placement to consolidate their skills.
Pox Dr,

I should have been more specific about the civvies in uniform; I was referring primarily to the newer nursing staff who have never known the days of proper military hospitals. As you say, there seems to be very little esprit de corps these days and this is undoubtedly due in part to the lack of real military structure in MDHUs, and particularly at RCDM. I served when we still had the military hospitals and still work within the new system. The new approach doesn't transfer well to the field, and unfortunately deployment is often the first time since basic training many nurses do anything military.

Quiet a few of the senior QAs seem to thrive on the NHS management style of endless meetings, targets and projects. Anything that keeps them away from those awful patient people!

As to retention, in the RAF and RN, medics get to do their job. Both generally get to use their clinical skills more than most CMTs, but I think one difference is that in my experience there is significantly more mutual respect within the branch. In my experience CMTs are seen as dogsbodies and rarely encouraged, which is a great shame. Also, most branch officer (LE) MSOs in the RAF and RN are former medics or med techs, so understand their troops a lot better. I'm not sure what the thinking behind the RAMC's current policy is, or even if there is any.
Did not mean to tar you all with the same brush. The old school nurses who were around for the BMH's are certainly worth thier weight in gold(not pound for pound I hasten to add). We have junior nurses now deployed with us who admit that this is not what they joined for and as soon as they have done their 3 year payback it is adios to the forces...

Ther is talk of putting nurses on a two week military training camp a year same as TA so as they can get their ITD's done and qualify to draw there basic pay as a soldier which primarily is what they are first!!

With regard to the respect awarded to the MA and RAF medic you have hit the nail on the head. The LE MSO point is being dicussed on another area. But you are correct we have to many TFI's who do not understand the CMT. To make things worse these people are being employed as RCO's in Regiments.

The CEG reveiw is well under way and in principle is a good thing I can only see one sticking point and that is going to be funding!! although I have been assured that this is in place so we shall wait and see.
I have to mention that the differences between RAF, Navy and Army are a long way from ever being equal. Alas we have gone off at tangent from the original thread that is what is considered the main downfall of the AMS ?

Not just the QARANC but the entire Service ?

Can anyone person, Office, or department be blamed or is it a group of soldiers ie all those who joined after me ? for example !!!!!
I personally feel the rot really set in with the creation of the DSCA & will most likely continue with DMETA.

I’ve seen nothing so far to suggest otherwise.
Blaming me ! nothing new there then QMan ?

I disagree its not the QA's Fault. I do believe they exacerbate the problems but not really responsible for our dilemas.


1. Death of the Fd Ambs
2. The influx of TFI LEs who know little or nothing of the workings of the RAMC
3. DCS15
4. Ceation of the DSCA (Nice one Pox Dr)
5. The now over-eliance in the TA when more should have been done to bolster the Regular AMS and not cutting it.
6. PM me and I'll tell you what 6 is, New Q!
7. QA's and Hospital wallahs who drag the AMS down with little or no Military ethos whatsoever- that applies to CMTs also who fail to educate and promote what being in the Army means.
8. MSO's who last 12 months in the Corps and get out- but can you blame them for doing that!
9. Doctors who think they know best- you don't- treat people and let MSO's do the management. (Well some of them!)
10. Never seeming to have the right people doing CEG reviews and trade upgrades, course reviews etc- they haven't got it right in my 23 odd years! (odd being an apt word, I think!)
Until the contracts with the NHS trusts are sorted out we are always going to be in this position. When they come up for reveiw we have to turn round and have the balls to say NO. After what is going on in the Gulf we are going to need to be able to free up the more specialised nurses and doctors instead of having them remain behind to cover the NHS reduce waiting lists and get the government out of the brown and smelly....

Surely the treatment of our soldiers has to come first. I mean who is going to tell Mrs Jones her son/daughter could not be treated in theatre adequatly due to specialist/experienced nursing staff not being avaliable, believe me it is happening now.
To blame the QA's whilst traditional and humourous is not the answer. It was exactly this sort of infighting in the AMS which brought about our current difficulties. Back then various speacialists attacked each others "war role's" claiming we did'nt need them with the result many useful trades and clinical areas were lost.

What is needed now is strong leadership and the promotion of why the army needs us as opposed to a whole host of civilian agencies. We serve to meet the role of the AMS in war and peace and we have a distinguished record which needs to be once more built upon.

Sadly I fear if we do not address this soon we will be go the way of other formations and be confined to memories and the history books of tomorrow. [/quote]
What is needed now is strong leadership and the promotion of why the army needs us as opposed to a whole host of civilian agencies. We serve to meet the role of the AMS in war and peace and we have a distinguished record which needs to be once more built upon.

A totally true statement however; Do we have a strong enough hierarchy to give the so needed leadership and do enough of our junior soldiers know of our distinguished history so as to build upon it ?

The topple effect is well under way and sadly I feel your latter quote is inevitable

Sadly I fear if we do not address this soon we will be go the way of other formations and be confined to memories and the history books of tomorrow.
New Q I would be very cautious about the hierarchy at the present. The current DGAMS is the very person who negotiated the Frimley Park contract with the NHS and we all know what an outstanding bit of work that is. :twisted: :evil:
The currant DGAMS has a lot to answer for the as he was also swinging the blade in DCS 15!!!

Obviously done him no harm what so ever.....

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