Whitehall amateurs caused Iraq deaths, says Viggers

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by PartTimePongo, Dec 10, 2009.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6951019.ece
  2. I wasn't aware we were occupying Afghanistan............
  3. Biped

    Biped LE Book Reviewer

    Funny old game ain't it?

    I only commented about Rammel yesterday in the 'Question Time Thread' about the fact that Rammel was a rank amateur who was unnacceptably over-promoted to roles to which he is quite clearly unsuitable.

    It would seem that Labour has a long and distinguished history of promoting thickos and incompetents to roles and departments that, in truth, require skilled stewardship. Defence Minister would be a good example, or an even better example of Labour's failure in promoting the right people would be Gordon Brown as Chancellor, followed by Prime Minister.

    The Ministers, department heads and advisors associated with the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts being the tip of the iceberg, albeit a tip that has brought about failures that have had devastating effects with regard to loss of forces personnel, as well as the failure of the rapid promotion of stability and peace in both countries.
  4. What do you expect from a bunch of former student activists, who have no love for the Armed Forces (unless it's a photo-oportunity) and of whom most have never had a proper job.
  5. Freddie - you are the man, stand up and take a bow! What? Oh you are standing up already? Well take a bow sir!
  6. When the dummy in charge can't read and write, spell, what do you expect
  7. If we could stick to a debate on Viggers comments please?
  8. He isn't the first to comment on the lack of planning for post Saddam Iraq. We all know about failing to plan.
  9. One important difference betwen military officers and CS is that the former are actually formally taught to plan. There is no equivalent in other government departments of 7Qs, estimates, sync matrices, etc, etc - or certainly not to the point where it is an ingrained part of CS culture. Nor is there really much that could be called doctrine in most other departments.

    In the obscure patch of cross-Whitehall work I was involved in during 2004-08 it was common for the team to look to the military rep to do the 'campaign planning' (I know, that's very pretentious in this context) because that was a process they were very good at.

  10. I can support C-C's comments on planning - speak to most OGDs and the one thing they don't do, but envy us for, is our ability to plan. Having played on several large exercises involving OGDs, this has proved correct. Don't get me wrong, there's some pretty bright fast streamers, but if you don't give them the tools, how can you expect them to do the right thing. Perhaps a version of JOTAC for at least Fast Stream CSs followed by ICSC, and even ACSC would be useful?

    The other thing not mentioned in this thread is none other than : Clare Short, who having taken the 'ump about the war, apparently completely forbade her department (DFID) from any form of co-operation with the MOD in pre-war and post-war planning. Whilst I admire her for her principles, she should have simply stepped aside, and not gotten in the way.

    FORMER_FYRDMAN LE Book Reviewer

    You've lost me there - is that a typo or are you saying that military officers are not taught to plan? I've met officers who gave this impression but I'm sure some hapless instructor at some point had tried to impart planning wisdom in a formal setting.
  12. The truth will out!
  13. Edited to make sense - red face time.

  14. Hmm - I guess that the several thousand experience project managers at DE&S must be a figment of our imagination then? These are the same bods that buy all the UOR kit.

    It's all just a matter of different terminology and most military find that they can slot comfortably into project management or industry roles.

    7Qs = Project initation document
    Estimates = planning and business case
    Sync matrix = project schedule
  15. Lets not forget though that the tools are just one part of the package - you need to know how to use them to best effect. Many projects have followed PRINCE 2 methodology only to find themselves over budget and late, and that's where PM and Military Planning start becoming an art form, rather than a paint by numbers process!