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White House: Murthas call is surrender

#1
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/18/murtha.iraq/


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House accused a senior House Democrat -- and a decorated Vietnam veteran -- who called for a swift withdrawal from Iraq of advocating surrender, comparing him to anti-war filmmaker Michael Moore.

In a broadside issued Thursday night, Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said that it is "baffling that [Pennsylvania Rep. John Murtha] is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic party."

McClellan called Murtha, a retired Marine colonel who earned a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts for his service in Vietnam, "a respected veteran and politician who has a record of supporting America."

But McClellan added, "The eve of an historic democratic election in Iraq is not the time to surrender to the terrorists."

A senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, Murtha had supported the resolution that authorized the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

But Thursday he called the Bush administration's management of the conflict "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion," and said the continued presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is "uniting the enemy against us"
"It's time to bring the troops home," he said, noting that a withdrawal would take about six months to complete. (Read more on his statement)

He also took a swipe at Vice President Dick Cheney and President Bush, who have accused Democratic critics of playing politics during a war.

"I like guys who've never been there who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Bush to stand firm on Iraq policy
Staff and agencies
18 November, 2005

By Steve Holland 13 minutes ago

PUSAN, South Korea - U.S. President George W. Bush President George W. Bush will argue for sticking with his Iraq policy Saturday in a speech to U.S. troops that aides said would avoid attacks on Democrats who accuse him of manipulating pre-war intelligence.

After attending the final session of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation ( APEC ) summit, Bush is to address U.S. troops at Osan Air Base before flying to Beijing for talks on Sunday with Chinese President Hu Jintao .
Another photo opportunity to deliver a speech in front of the only audience you can rely on not to heckle you Mr. President?

I apologise to our cousins in advance, but this seems just like using the troops in a cynical fashion.
 
#2
John Murtha: A former Marine with decorations including the Purple Heart and Bronze Star (a proper medal) who reached the rank of Colonel in the USMC.

George W Bush: A former junkie and alcoholic who used his father's influence to avoid serving his country in the Vietnam War, and who shirked his cushy Air National Guard assignment, and expects soldiers to die in a war of his own making based upon his colossal deceit, arrogance and stupidity.

Dick Cheney: Another cowardly liar (like the cowardly liar Bush) who did not even bother taking a Air National Guard assignment, but who obtained five deferments from service in Vietnam.

I know who I'd believe. Are Americans really so stupid?
 
#6
Put yourself in the sandals of haji for a sec. You see the willpower in the US Congress waivering would that not give you a morale boost to stay the course ? To me this is the danger. If there was a unified voice haji might consider an exit strategy of their own.
 
#7
"haji"

Nice to know you have such a high opinion of the people you liberated. BTW, where are all the 23 million Iraqi 'haji' going to exit to?
 
#9
razorman said:
"haji"

Nice to know you have such a high opinion of the people you liberated. BTW, where are all the 23 million Iraqi 'haji' going to exit to?
I doubt very much he did. His avatar used to be a USN flag. Now it's Army jump wings. He probably learned the phrase on the Discovery Channel. I'll leave the Waltenkommando to investigate further. :wink:

Good point about the Iraqi exit strategy Razorman. It's not as if people are suddenly going to roll over when faced with a They're going to bottle all their resentment up and unleash it at another time- and these folks have long fcuking memories.

The fact that the Administration is demanding acquiescence of Americans is essentially fascistic in nature and makes a mockery of the democratic values they proclaim to be exporting. The hypocrisy of the White House and No. 10 helps recruitment and resolve of the other side too.
 
#10
OldRedCap said:
http://snakeeater.blogspot.com/
Entry for Saturday, 19 November re Murha etc.
From said tin-foil hat site
Both countries will collapse into lawless vacuums that incourage anti-western zealots to head there, train and launch missions.
As opposed to...?

As long as we, the west, retain our resolve, we can keep the anti-western zealots at bay.
As the London, Bali and Madrid attacks etc. clearly demonstrate...

Unfortunately a lot of western nations have lost their resolve. We're not standing alone by any means, but weekly we lose stand-up allies.
So what does tell you about the wisdom of your little adventure, the liklihood for success, and the idea that it promoted peace and stability?

The rest will be there when the chips come down, but it would be nice to have them here with us, showing a huge, united front against a terrorism-based way of dealing with issues.
So things are upbeat at the moment? Fascinating.

Spain, Italy, et al--Don't lose backbone now. Get it back up and let's show a unified HUGE OVERWHELMING western reaction to terror.
That's how you motivate sovereign states, who have their own interests, agendas and priorities*- call them spineless. with regard to terror- terror is the REaction, not the action. You are only terrorized if you allow yourself to be. Hysterical kneejerk policies and reactions are the visible symptoms of a wider problem- that the people in charge have lost the plot. (Who remembers "Radiological attack! Threat level Orange! HOLY FCUKING SH!T!!! BUY DUCT TAPE!!!! BUY DUCT TAPE!!!" Cnuts.)


Once again, he draws the Afghanistan-Iraq link. Fcuk me, these muppets are predictable.


*- "Having other priorities" is a perfectly acceptable reason for opting out of going to war- just ask Dick Cheney as that's the excuse he gave to justify his FIVE draft deferments during the Vietnam war.
 
#11
Actually I thought I would try the avatar change - guess I had too much time on my hands last night.
As for my haji reference I referred of course to the enemy. But as you support the other side I can see how you might be offended.
Perhaps you would prefer i call them martyr. It does amuse me to see you call a conservative blogger a tin foil hat member, when on my side you would be the tin foil hat wearer. I guess it all depends on your viewpoint. 8)
 
#12
tomahawk6 said:
Actually I thought I would try the avatar change - guess I had too much time on my hands last night.
As for my haji reference I referred of course to the enemy. But as you support the other side I can see how you might be offended.
Perhaps you would prefer i call them martyr. It does amuse me to see you call a conservative blogger a tin foil hat member, when on my side you would be the tin foil hat wearer. I guess it all depends on your viewpoint. 8)

'erm you do realise that Hajji is a term of respect used to desrcibe any man who has been on pilgrimage to Mecca?
Now if you think that every person who has ever been on pilgrimage to Mecca is an Iraqi terrorist/hater of democracy .... then erm, well not even Daniel Pipes thinks that!

FYI: Martyr/Witness in arabic/persian or urdu is shaheed.
Also I wouldn't use it a negative term as many Arab/Asian Christians also use the term.
 
#13
2 Quick points

1. Tom6 is most definitely not a Walt.

2. Increasingly across various forums outside Arrse, I am seeing American servicemen attacked for retaining their belief, faith and support in their colleagues doing their best in Iraq. I do not want to see commentary in Arrse heading the same way.


Now , as far as I can tell, I so not see the American Military dictating policy in Iraq. What I do see however, is a political shambles , seeking to increasingly place blame on the Military for the Iraq mess, via the use of certain bloggers , mainstream media and spin designed to protect the politicians responsible for this mess.

The problem as I see it now, is the determination of certain parties to have their cake and eat it. Their grand plan was flawed from the start , and instead of changing the plan to meet the threat, they decided to stay with it, no matter what the cost. The cost is in the lives of yet more American servicemen killed this weekend, and the figures for US deaths in the last week approaching 30 , as commanders seek to keep down the insurgency, that some in Washington are still insisting is only a 'hiccup'

Instead of hearing how this mess is going to be resolved , and the plan of action to hand over sovereignty , we hear the same tired hackneyed phrases "Stay the course, Fighting them there so we don't do it here etc etc" We hear any talk of announcing a timetable for withdrawl and handing over control , is 'giving in to terrorists" Now this confuses me. I thought the plan was to depose Hussein, hold free and fair elections and get out. Why is the announcement of a timetable for withdrawl 'giving in to terrorists' unless we never intended to disengage in the first place?

I find it verging on the disgusting, to see a President who instead of taking the helm, amd announcing what the plan is to disengage US Forces and by default ourselves from the morass , cynically uses the Military for yet another photocall to show that he has the uneqivocal support of the Military for his plans and current course of action.

I have news for you Mr. President, you don't. There is only so long, that the Military , and in particular the Reserve and their families can put up with this mess. There is only so long you can continue to hide behind the Military to push the flawed policies and advice of those who do not even have the interests of the United States as their primary goal.
 
#14
Endorse PTP above. My only problem is the spirit and, I suppose, style of the US serviceman. They still have a lot of The Alamo mentality and I do not just mean the movie of that name. They are a strongly Christian country - large churches all across America will be chock-full today. That is a self-sustaining community that gives group support. The overall situation seems to that Americans still believe that what they did was right - in Christian terms right and it will take a lot to shift. It will be, for some, The Lord testing them rather than fighting terrorists. I truly hope that some way can be found to get the guys out of Iraq. For a long time now, the situation has not deserved one further single coalition casualty.
The old fairytale about oil should sign off. They have oil but they need to extract it, transport it and market it. This cannot be done by faith in Allah alone - the West has the expertise; much of it American.
There has to be much double-dealing and confidence trickery to get out. Do it - call it fine diplomacy. Once we are out, we (the West) need to realise that the Middle East is no longer our play-war battleground and stay out. Leave it to those who live there. Israel will always be a major player if we leave them alone - they know what price they would have to pay if they lost any war.
We also should try and recover the style of middle-ages battles. The Kings who started the troubles led their armies into battle. I for one would ignore B Liar no matter how much he offered me a kingdom for a horse!
 
#15
Endorse PTP above. My only problem is the spirit and, I suppose, style of the US serviceman. They still have a lot of The Alamo mentality and I do not just mean the movie of that name. They are a strongly Christian country - large churches all across America will be chock-full today. That is a self-sustaining community that gives group support. The overall situation seems to that Americans still believe that what they did was right - in Christian terms right and it will take a lot to shift. It will be, for some, The Lord testing them rather than fighting terrorists. I truly hope that some way can be found to get the guys out of Iraq. For a long time now, the situation has not deserved one further single coalition casualty.
The old fairytale about oil should sign off. They have oil but they need to extract it, transport it and market it. This cannot be done by faith in Allah alone - the West has the expertise; much of it American.
There has to be much double-dealing and confidence trickery to get out. Do it - call it fine diplomacy. Once we are out, we (the West) need to realise that the Middle East is no longer our play-war battleground and stay out. Leave it to those who live there. Israel will always be a major player if we leave them alone - they know what price they would have to pay if they lost any war.
We also should try and recover the style of middle-ages battles. The Kings who started the troubles led their armies into battle. I for one would ignore B Liar no matter how much he offered me a kingdom for a horse!
Going to Iraq was the right thing Christian or not. I might add most of the people being killed in Iraq by the terrorist/insurgence are Iraqi , Especially those who are trying to bring a decent form of government to that country.
 
#16
OldRedCap said:
The old fairytale about oil should sign off. They have oil but they need to extract it, transport it and market it. This cannot be done by faith in Allah alone - the West has the expertise; much of it American.
Maybe such a assertion was true about 50 years but its not any more most countries could easily support their own indigenous oil infrastructure. Drilling techniques do not have property of the USA stamped on them. Even the Saudis if they decided to break their treaty with the Americans could easily extract and supply without any american help. You also forget that the Chinese now have a presence in the Persian gulf - so don't think they wouldn't be to keen to help any tranisition to indigenous control. The treaties/contracts suit countries like Saudi Arabia because they also offer western military and political protection which other wise would not be available.
 
#17
NEO_CON said:
Going to Iraq was the right thing Christian or not. I might add most of the people being killed in Iraq by the terrorist/insurgence are Iraqi , Especially those who are trying to bring a decent form of government to that country.
I suspect that someone who picks NEO_CON as a screen name is not given to much critical thinking. :roll:
 
#18
NEO_CON said:
Going to Iraq was the right thing Christian or not. I might add most of the people being killed in Iraq by the terrorist/insurgence are Iraqi , Especially those who are trying to bring a decent form of government to that country.
You mean a corrupt Shia theoracracy? Give the SCIRI time!
 
#19
I was thinking on this the other day and I find it hard (no matter how tin-foil beanie it may sound) to get away from the conclusion that a lot of the behaviour we see may well be the legacy of selective conscription during Vietnam. Those running the US today are, by and large, men who evaded service in Vietnam by various means. Other people could go off and die, but not them - they had other priorities. This attitude appears to pervade treatment of US troops at the moment by the administration.

Hence the current treatment of soldiers as disposable assets who can be sacrificed to cover up flaws in planning and execution of operations. It is not acceptable to change ops etc to save US soldiers if it will expose errors on the part of the administration.

And when men of the stature of McCain and Murtha (men about whom I can use the term "real American hero" without a trace of irony) speak out they are met with a barrage of appalling personal abuse attacking their patriotism, bravery and motivations. If AQ denounced them in the same terms it would be seen as propaganda of the vilest kind - but when the Fighting 101st Keyboard Brigade do it all of a sudden it becomes acceptable and even necessary.
 
#20
And when men of the stature of McCain Murtha (men about whom I can use the term "real American hero" without a trace of irony)
MacCain supports the war in Iraq and so does Congressman Duncan Hunter who is a real American hero both disagree with Murtha . My brother ,brother in law ,a old friend and father all served ,also support the war. Do they get to be considered by you" Real American heroes. It seems only people who agree with you are real American Heroes. What are your qualification to pass judgement on who are heroes and who isn't ?
http://www.house.gov/hunter/bio.html

I am not a hero ,but the liberation of Iraq was the right thing to do.
 

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