Where to after Germany for RMP?

Discussion in 'AGC, RAPTC and SASC' started by longwayhome, Nov 3, 2007.

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  1. I think Germany gives us a great opportunity to maintain and improve policing skills for operations that a posting to the UK doesn't necessarily bring due to jurisdictional differences.

    But over the next twenty years the garrisons will progressively close and this training opportunity will diminish. All of the Coys and SIB will find themselves back in the UK in the land of shadow casefiles and the three way jurisdictional situation of HOPF / MOD Police / RMP.

    So what should we do? I know it seems like a ridiculously long way away but it may take time to negotiate / have accepted a new (enhanced?) role for RMP operating in the uk.

    Should they be:

    Special constables that work in support of HOPF and MOD Police in their AOR?

    Subsume MOD Police again and work to increase their jurisdictional pull back in Garrisons?

    Stay exactly the same and just deal with the lack of in depth investigative and policing experience through regular attachments in the way that the medics do?

    Should we remove the current bar to RMP becoming special constables in thneir own time and allow them to serve on a voluntary basis to contribute to the community?

    Maybe we take over a niche area which has a gap in the capability such as immigration investigation / deportations etc?

    Forget it and just train for operations?

    Look to the Spanish, Dutch and Italian models and work side by side in Garrison towns with our HO counterparts, with little jurisdictional difference?

    I know a lot of these options seem way out of left field however I think it's worth thinking about now as any option which looks to change the status quo would need significant 'ground laying' and a long term vision. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
  2. Until we stop being subservient to the chain of command of the suspect and are reliant on the units to detain them then we are a long way off improving or working hand in hand with hopf. how can a co of a unit with no policing experience make decisions on custody etc, we would not ask the managing director of ici to comment on whether one of his workers is kept on remand would we. We need to be more like the civ pol and recognised before we could consider anything else. as much as your ideas make sense the reason they will not happen is that they make sense.

    sometimes i just feel that we play at it when we should be working more like the old bill, i mean do they write reports and send them to the boss of the suspect if he worked in tesco. it really is quite wierd.
  3. Two words:
    MOD Plod
  4. NFS I think you've got a point on the custody side of the house. It is really frustrating. Unfortunately COs will still remain central to the MCJS. It would at least be easier if the first 24 h was authorised by ASPO.

    Biff I could see us rolling together with the MOD Plod with greater ease and posting in and out of operational support roles much like the Dutch Marechausse. If you support a Bde you train for ops and are a Military Policeman. When not training or supporting ops you assume the role of MOD Police (equivalent) and crack on and police.
  5. First and foremost, I believe that the Government of the day, irrespective of who it may be, will see any reduction in role as a money saver and introduce redundancy packages, rather than see the benefit of having trained people who cost less than Bobbies, ready, willing and capable of doing the job. But, maybe that's the sceptic in me.

    I would doubt that the SC option would be on the table now and would be dubious about any future option.

    Would you really want to work for MDP? I doubt that RMP management would let that go without a fight. There's careers to be lost there for a kick off and there doesn't appear to be the workload for two 'Police Forces' kicking around the same patch. The spectre of Tri-service policing brought one or two out in a sweat. Perhaps, a reduction in the numbers of MDP would be a better solution. Keep their specialist elements and offer up transfers or redundancies to the foot soldiers. The local Constabulary chiefs would be glad of the reduction in AOR for their own, but would wish to have a 'supervisory hand' in what went on. Can't see why anyone would wish to be a SC whilst still serving and bear in mind that many civvies are advised to join the SC as a back door in, so to speak, so would you see an exodus heading towards the police. Maybe that's just me.

    Bear in mind as the Germany Garrisons close, the troops are coming back to bigger UK ones, so the role won't be lost in its entirety. Agreed, it'll be quieter as the Toms head off out of the Garrisons at the weekends.

    Ops role? Well, the SPAMS have Bns of MPs who do nothing else.

    Border police. Now, the Bundesgrenzschutz do a nice line in border policing and are para-military (have you seen the gear they pull out on their open days?) so perhaps that would be the model. After all, where are the Border Police the Government promised? I doubt that a Marachausee option would ever be on the table. The Generals wouldn't like it, but then again it works for the Dutch and if you take a good look at the French, they don't have MPs, they are all Gendermarie who take on a posting or two during their careers, but would MDP fight for that?

    Take SIB completely out of the system and employ them under the same auspices as the US Army CID. Just don't employ the Special Agent title.

    If as and when, the threat escalates and ends up as promised, I reckon the border issue would be the solution......but then again the RAF P have more experience with barriers and wire fences, so they may have that role stitched up.

    Border Policing and enhanced support for the police at Ports, Airports, Nuclear sites and other sensitive areas, could see several Coy's in full time employment and continuous training. A realistically sized Garrison Policing Element would be both manpower and cost effective.

    I think if you took it to the people who vote, right now, given the crime and disorder issues which Blair said he would rid the country of, you'd more than likely get the support for the SC role.

    What you don't want is RMP offering to make the reductions off their own back like they did when 'Options' appeared. There were 56 SIB in Germany pre 'Options'.....which was reduced 'virtually overnight' to 28 before any of the rest of BAOR (as it was then) even considered who was going back to UK. It stayed that way for over a year I believe. Busy? I suppose they were.
  6. Not to worry the RMP name is safe in uk policing because everytime I explain I'm an MoD Police officer the avswer is usually "Oh your military police". As far RMP role in the uk is I see it in the new super garrisons as regard MDP role because its a defence agency we need paying, no pay no police, So as the squeeze on funds becomes tighter TLB's service commands rely on HOPF or RMP (as your free) to deal with anything on the MoD estate. An example of this is woolwich where they are placing the London PD bn and another infantry bn, reducing the MDP from 1-5-18 to two unit beat officers. We used to have area policing teams that dealt with MoD establishments across a defined area that looked after MQ's garrisons, TA centre's etc but because no one was paying it was canned. Currently MDP main role is counter terrorism, high profile armed / unarmed patrols, this has been shown at places like the gas terminals where the home office tasked MDP to provide armed policing to these sites. Where I am at Whitehall its all counter terrorist based deter disrupt etc through anti terrorist powers and again high visibilty patrols, coupled with the crime reports from MB of stolen biscuits!! So I see RMP role in Garrisons perhaps working with MDP unit beat officers, as to whether you need special constable powers I personally think they are not required you have powers to deal with military personnel anything outside of that should be left to MDP or HOPF. MDP take enough stick for being an unaccountable paramilitary police force (which we're not) if military police are given SC powers I think that would be seen as unacceptable. The picture's of soldiers arresting mop's would be seen as one step from a military junta in the eyes of the indymedia mob. However I'm all for joint working and would have no probs in having RMP crew up with my lot.
  7. Some interesting points here huh? I could see a time where the two agencies are combined. Just like the Dutch, you wear one uniform (the HO standard uniform) for policing UK and the green skin for tours and exercises. The RMP name and history is retained within the Army and at the same time a better combined policing agency is developed that meets the needs of the garrison and the training needs for deployment.

    I think the general public would love an expanded policing presence in many of the Garrison towns. They seem to be more than happy to accept comined patrols already (even seen them on the Bravo Channell!). Why bother having two seperate police agencies to police a garrison area (add the HOPF and you get a third!). MOD Police are already working overseas and RMP are already working in UK. Let just look to how we roll them together. Surely we'd do better if we combined our efforts?

    I don't think its necessarily a case of working for the MDP, I think there could be a third way here. A combined HQ under a Provost Marshal / Chief Constable.

    This may be a necessary step to stop a reduction in RMP numbers which would only be detrimental to deployable capability. As for special constable powers that would be a given if the agencies were combined as the new soldier / policeman would police his or her garrison in the same manner as the MDP do now, allowing them to deal with dependants and MOD workers as they do in Germany right now.

    Allowing RMP to join Constabularies as SCs now may be a way to soften the blow to the general public over time and allow a progression to a new policing paradigm. I'm not sure we'd see an exodus, although I'm sure some would go as they do now.

    It may be that this allows our UK based soldiers to maintain their day to day policing skills whilst training for operations. We could conceivably even formalise the arangment and replace our present shift system in the UK with the equivalent of SC shifts in the Garrison areas...

    It all sounds pretty out there now but looking 20 years down the track is it so inconceivable if it was envisaged, thrashed out, planned for and agreed on?
  8. Maybe jumping off thread but I agree with the custody comments, in Germany especially out of hours a units field officer has so much power it is unreal. If you consider that as an individual they may hold an LE commision and in theory may have been the RSM a week or so prior. What gives them the experience or knowledge to guage how long is reasonable for an investigation to progress.

    There sems to be reluctance to hold soldiers/dependants/UKBC in pre charge custody for any offence for which they have been arrested. It takes so much time to explain the reasons for retaining in custody that it can be painful to watch. If the Pro duty offr had this power for at least the first 12 hours it would save so many inter-personal battles. Or even a G1 dty offr at Bde level would take the randomness from the decision and review process.
  9. It may be off thread but its still an important issue. To be honest Jay I reckon its about the way a shift commander briefs. The Duty Field Officer is generally fearful about authorising. They've had no training and are worried at being held accountable. The best we can do at this time is be prepared and brief well. As well as fullfilling all the mandatory requirements I've used the following check list in the past and can count on one hand the times I've been refused:

    1. Grounds for being held and what they mean in practical terms based off the two reasosn for custody

    2. How the RMP intend to pursue the matter over the custody period.

    3. Explaining times for the purpose of custody and what this means in practical terms,

    4. Explain that they may not be the only show in town and that other custody matters and calls for service may affect how long you need to get to witnesses etc

    5. Give them your best guess as to how long you'll need and tell them you'll call them back a couple of hours before you need an extension.

    6. Document the progress on COPPERS to cover your back.

    It takes five minutes to put the brief together but is worth it and its definitely worked for me. If they don't buy it have your duty officer call them back. An initial refusal can generally be turned around with a duty officer to duty officer chat.

    Hope this helps.
  10. Combined policing agency, MDP already are combined with MGS hence the agency name MDPGA under a chief constable/chief executive. They would need to combine all 3 service police forces under a single PM, that would cause enough bother. MDP are civil servants with unique conditions of service within the civil service we are not service personnel. As pointed out MDP do serve overseas now kosovo, Iraq Dharfor but we don't wear green and our there as police monitors in the various places. Historically there has always been a civillian police force within MoD war dept constabulary, air ministry constabulary and admiralty constabulary. I think that MDP will remain doing its thing and the service police will remain doing theirs closer working yes amalgamted no.
  11. just a quick word on MDP, they are not working outside of the Uk they do not have the power, if they do come to bfg which they have on occasions they need authority and in reality the work should be carried out by the local gpd/sib unit on their behalf, although this does not always happen.

    for this system to work that is being thrashed out above a lot of things need to change:

    1. Custody

    2. Charging not reporting.

    3. More powers for uniforms to spot fine etc, an inspectors warning or equivilent that is documented on redcap/coppers.

    4. the only tools that we have are full job or no job. summary dealing or court martial which seems a bit excessive for a minor bar fight.

    5. a magistrates court or equivilent that deals with impaired and other minor crime that seems to tie up duties for weeks when in real terms it should be that they are arrested and detained by rmp then put in front of the beak the next day.

    as i said we need to change our working practices and move with the times stop playing at it and do the job properly (not saying that we do not do a good job) just that we are not doing it as best as we could. it is very frustrating when you have non rmp making decisions about the way we conduct ours.

    maybe it is time i left and changed from green to blue?

    On another note can anyone explain please why it appears that my number of posts submitted sometimes goes down.

    Thank You
  12. We're talking about the problems with custody of service personnel under close arrest, why not expand in the way CIVPOL operate, the Military Police stations could have custody suites same as CIVPOL and these new suites could be staffed by members of MPSC on attachment from MCTC. This way custody cases are regulated, the detained soldier has his detention authorised correctly and once he has been dealt with, bailed under PACE to appear in front of his CO on orders, just like a civilian in front of a mags court. By working this way the RMP can evolve and will ensure their future.
  13. I concur i do beleive that it would work it would be a start aswell.
  14. I'm not so sure its such a bad fit Leigh, other European nations make it work, why not us? It would take time and effort and planning but surely one agency to police the Army / MOD makes sense? There would have to be significant economies of scale in doing so, greater posting choice, combined training (we are nearly there with that one anyway), greater specialist assets available? The whole USCID model that Biscuits proposed would fit in well with this evolution too wouldn't it?

    I reckon combining us with you guys would remove a whole lot of duplicated effort. There would definitely be legacy issues with those of both services / forces but over time these would work themselves out like they are doing / have done with MDP and MGS. There is even current overlap in the police monitoring business. I worked with HOPF and MDP in Iraq and the responsibility was definitely shared (and of course shared with the home office as well).

    I'm not talking about next year I'm talking about a gradual evolution. It doesn't have to be that model exactly however it seems a waste to bring four / five companies (500+ RMP and SIB) of RMP back from Germany to see them underutilised as a police force. You'd also get more out of the Companies in UK now as well.

    After all we are all investigating basically the same people just in different AORs and with shifting jurisdictions.
  15. Think this is a cracking idea. It would also allow a soldier to enter a plea early with some modifications to the system based on an abbreviated brief and remove the requirement for RMP to prepare full briefs of evidence where a guilty please was submitted.