when we buy a new rifle should we buy off the shelf

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by brighton hippy, Jun 11, 2007.

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  1. after the sa80 debacle it was proved nether the mod or saa new dick about firearms design shouldn't the mod in 2015 go to an arms fair and pick the best of whats about rather than trying to develop something in house.
    as the orginal spec was 120 rounds in 24 hours thats insane
  2. I respectfully suggest that they knew a great deal about firearms but little about Treasury officials who neither knew nor cared whether they knew or not!

    You will not get the best of anything - you will get the cheapest available under competative tendering and then told that you have been given the best available!
  3. We'll have to go to the global market. We have no mass manufacturing capability for rifles anymore.
  4. Sadly very very true!

    the updated A2 is good but I carry it rather than use it regularly, I have been that fraction of an inch from using it and not felt too worried about it's performance...

    what would everyone like?
  5. Whatever they decide Nato need to stop using 5.56mm, go back to 7.62mm At least when you shoot a taliban with it, it will actually stop him.
  6. In the ideal world you're right BH. Sadly politics will win over common sense every time. We ended up with the SLR as the septics wanted NATO to standardise at 7.62mm - then they promptly adopted the Armalite in 5.56mm. Interestingly, the SA80's precursor, the EM2, was the main competition to the SLR in the calibre it was actually designed to fire - 4.85mm.

    And we only ended up with the FV432 as opposed the much superior M113 because, politically, it had to be home produced. I could go on..........

    ps the French FAMAS is one of the best assault rifles I've had the opportunity to fire. Imagine buying from them though........
  7. Whats next then, Let me guess 177 air rifle, or even BB Gun
  8. Biped

    Biped LE Book Reviewer

    Air rifles have been produced succesfully for a very long time by the likes of BSA. Unlike the SA80, they keep working for years and years and the ammunition is cheaper. Beyond 50 yards however, you need something a little bigger and IMHO 5.56 doesn't cut the mustard.

    Bring back the venerable 7.62, or something in between.

    I always thought the case-inserted fletchet round was the dog's nuts as the cyclic rate of fire, the velocity, the drop and the power were all exceptional from the reports I read. 1/2" steel plate with a 5.56 fletchet? No problem. Not only this, but current cases could still be used as the fletchet was loaded to the back of it and the powder packed in around it.

    Edited to add: Clicky 1, Clicky 2, Clicky 3
  9. EM2 and SA80 only have the bullpup configuration in common - nothing else. The 4.85 mm round was the original chambering of the SA80 (XL64) but lost out to 5.56 just as the .260 round of the EM2 lost out to 7.62 which was too much for EM2 hence buying SLR/FAL instead.

    Incidentally, I have recently heard from a friend who used to work at Royal Ordnance Nottingham that he did see the fabled left-hand SA80 in their pattern room. Whether it was in 4.85 or 5.56 I didn't ask and he may not know. It was twenty years ago. In any case, a reliable sighting of it. He didn't think that more than one or two prototypes were made.
  10. I don't know if the SA80 A2 Has a shelf life, but like most things the advancement of technology, will i feel call for a further upgrade of the weapon system, Or a total re-think of our small arms.

    All of the working parts are indeed stamped H&K, So in the future will Hekler
    & Koch re-design the whole weapon system!!..

    I quite like the look of these two.

    Attached Files:

  11. Here's the 4.85mm "Individual Weapon" precursor to the SA80 that I mentioned earlier:
    and a reasonable article on the topic notwithstanding the quirky translation from Russian.
  12. We should buy this, the barrels can be swapped between 5.56mm and 7.62 depending if its in light or heavy role.

    Attached Files:

  13. The SA80 doesn't have a shelf-life as such, because it is modular and the technology is straight-forward. It will be repaired until the parts can no longer be made..... And I imagine that we have quite a few thousand sitting in long term storage, as the Services are now significantly smaller than when we bought the weapon!!

    What will change is the requirement for the weapon; is it accurate enough, reliable enough, cheap enough, simple enough, does it shoot far enough, does it stop the enemy effectively, etc etc? If the requirement changes, then the weapon will change, in due course. But I reckon the SA80 will be around for a good few years yet, especially after the money and effort that went into developing the A2 version.

    As for the next weapon? The one that will shoot around corners, not allow blue-on-blue contacts, make a brew at 0350hrs and wake you for your stag at 0400hrs.....? I reckon it will be off-the-shelf as we won't be able to afford anything else!

  14. Stuck with it until 2020 at least.

    Useful canter through the bright ideas, follies, failures and future developments:


    H&K G36 if we had to change now or even if somebody got the Treasury to loosen the purse strings a bit.
  15. The Light and Heavy models are actually different weapons. Only components such as the buttstock are interchangeable. 7.62 version would be ideal in my view.