When to say Sir or Maam??

#1
Quick question that's probably already been answered elsewhere but I couldn't find it.

At what stage are we to acknowledge officers as officers? I have a friend (an ex) who's an Officer Cadet (after passing RCB with the regs - she joins in Jan) and now has the white flash on her rank slide.

Does this mean I have to call her ma'am? Coz she's really expecting (and hoping) me to.
 
#2
The system is that as Officer Cadets thay are accorded the rights of an Officer and as such should be addressed as Sir or Ma'am and accomodated in the officers mess., but not saluted.

In reality they should also know they are at the bottom of the heap and accept that they are lucky anyone even talks to them.
 
#6
Redcap said:
The system is that as Officer Cadets thay are accorded the rights of an Officer and as such should be addressed as Sir or Ma'am and accomodated in the officers mess., but not saluted.
I was told to treat them as normal but when they started to get command appointments (section comd) - you'd then start using Sir/Ma'am
 
#8
who cares as long as you don't get shafted? just do whatever they want and keep clear, then when you get a chance.....you can frag them and blame it on charlie!
 
#9
Call her ma'am on duty and keep a straight face. The great thing about this is that it reminds junior Herberts that they are supposed to behave like proper orficers - and that you are entitled to expect them to do so.
 
#10
It is required that one respects the Queen's Commission and uniform of those wearing it.
It is voluntary to respect the person wearing it unless you know they've earned it!
(My guidelines from the 1950's-and probably hold true today).
 
#12
Definitive answer (from one who knows):

if they are an Officer Cadet - i.e. wear either a UOTC or a Sandhurst Cap Badge and a rank slide with a single white band (or UOTC equivalent) you call them Mr or Miss. YOU DO NOT call them Sir or Ma'am (unless you wish to be facetious). RMAS CSgts may well call them Sir or Ma'am but those few good enough to be RMAS CSgts are absolute Gods and the wise OCdt will treat them as such. RMAS Staff can therefore do what they damn well please without fear of contradiction. (That is not facetious - I am a long time out of RMAS and I still think they are Gods)

Anything that is engaged in Officer training but is not a member of a UOTC or else wearing a RMAS cap-badge is merely a potential officer and as such has neither rank nor first name. Treat them with care and consideration but deference is neither necessary nor desirable.
 
#13
Reminds me of the very junior OTC bloke attached for a weekend exercise to an RGJ platoon of the Londons. The youth told me that he was going to "Grip the ( Regular ) RSM, he didn't call me Sir."

To my lasting regret I talked him out of it.

His name was, appropriately enough, Pratt.
 
#15
abacus said:
Definitive answer (from one who knows):

if they are an Officer Cadet - i.e. wear either a UOTC or a Sandhurst Cap Badge and a rank slide with a single white band (or UOTC equivalent) you call them Mr or Miss. YOU DO NOT call them Sir or Ma'am (unless you wish to be facetious).

Anything that is engaged in Officer training but is not a member of a UOTC or else wearing a RMAS cap-badge is merely a potential officer and as such has neither rank nor first name. Treat them with care and consideration but deference is neither necessary nor desirable.
Abacus.

Totally agree with the first bit. Re the second bit - it's not mandatory to be a meber of a UOTC or wearing a Sandhurst cap badge to be an officer cadet. Those who have passed a commissioning board as part of a Unit are entitled to the same courtesy. They are NOT POs once they have passed that board.

Scary
 
#16
^do you mean ACF, Scary? Have been asked to take a Gp B convert to Gp A under my wing and I must admit to being a bit unsure how to handle him. Any advice gratefully received.
 
#17
Abacus

ACF?! - wash out your mouth at once! Nothing to do with them at all.

When someone gets selected from the ranks to be a PO they are as you say not any better than the rest and not worthy of extra rank/saluting/titles.

When they pass their TA commissioning board, they are entitled to put up the white stripy thing on their rank slide and be called OCdt. They do not have to be in a UOTC or at Sandhurst for this to be the case - most ordinary TA units have them, with normal cap badges.

What you said in the first part of your post above is spot on for these people. When they pass out from Sandhurst and get one shiny new pip they are entitled to the sir/ma'am bit and all that goes with it.

The B to A thing - I assume you mean ACF/OTC to normal TA unit is not the easiest transition. Depends on the rank of the individual. I did it myself more years ago than I care to remember, but I was only a 2Lt and VERY aware that I knew nothing - always a bonus. (some rude people would say nothing has changed but then they are just very rude people)

What rank is your convert?

Scary
 
#18
He's a 36 yr old 2Lt - failing badly in the attitude test so far and reckons I'm being too demanding asking him to walk (his word) 4 miles in under an hour. Thinks I was taking the p when I told him he would need to carry 25Kg while he was doing it. Oh, and he "doesn't do running". Phones every Wed asking for timings for the weekend and leaves a message on my answerphone every Friday to say, Sister's getting married, budgie died, Gran eloped, etc. and he won't be able to make it in.

Got a CO an OC and a PSAO (none of them mine thankfully) asking me if I'm sure I'm not being too judgmental and shouldn't I just give him a chance. My response is that they don't need my permission to transfer him, TA Regs let them do it regardless but they say no it has to be my recommendation that they act on so I think they must want someone to blame when it all goes horribly wrong and I would be ideal in that respect.

Still not sure what you meant by "Those who have passed a commissioning board as part of a Unit " - I apologise for my assumption about ACF earlier - bad form and you a fellow MAP.
 
#19
When they pass their TA commissioning board, they are entitled to put up the white stripy thing on their rank slide and be called OCdt. They do not have to be in a UOTC or at Sandhurst for this to be the case - most ordinary TA units have them, with normal cap badges.
If they're doing 'potenential officer' training with their Bde's as PO's or Ocdt's then they should have their nice shiny (horribly plastic) capbadge or their noggin, green belt and blue berret. Folks in my platoon were instructed that it is our new uniform until commissioned or burnt out. I guss it helps them identify other such unfortunate types. Makes for some interesting parades though.

Call them 'sir' if you want to, but Mr/Miss is the norm. "Oi you!" works just as well.

There's a pigeon trying to get through my window...
 
#20
Abacus

A 36 yr old 2Lt - oh dear. With an attitude like you describe I would be inclined to have a serious "chat" with him and tell him the score - get his act together or go back to the cadet force (I assume that's where he's come from?) Mind you with an attitiude like that he shouldn't be a cadet officer either.

If you can ever get him to come on a w/e, he will disqualify himself pretty fast in front of the people that matter by the sound of him. If he doesn't turn up on anything in the next month I would go to those who are asking you to judge and say his attendance is so poor you can't make a judgement - that'll be the end of him.

Re the cap badge thing. My Unit has recently had several OCdts going through the process. They were picked out as ORs and so continued to wear their normal capbadge throughout their pre-commissioning training although not entitled to an Officer's one until post-Sandhurst. Once they pass the commissioning board w/e they can put up OCdt's white stripy rank thingy and are then entitled to be addressed as Mr/Miss but not sir/ma'am until 2Lts, which I am happy to say both now are - and neither of them are gobby in the slightest which is most refreshing.

I forgive you for mentioning the ACF since you are a fellow MAP.

Scary
 

Similar threads

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top