When is civil disobedience justified?

#1
I have been thinking that the current government are contemptable and a number of their policies severely compromise basic democratic principles. Not least in this is the transfer of soverignty to the undemocratic organisation that is the EU.

With the principle of "no taxation without representation", would it be appropriate to refuse to pay tax if the EU constitution comes into effect, if the Irish are succesfully railroaded into giving a yes vote in the upcoming 'referendum'.

What other actions are justified or where should the line be drawn which should provoke civil disobedience?
 
#2
There is actually a little known part of the Treason Act that requires individuals in Britain to NOT pay tax to a government guilty of treason.
The same Treason Act makes it absolutely clear that the Lisbon Treaty is treason.

Therefor the long established law of this land requires that we all desist from paying tax to the current government. I'm sure a dozen or two posters will jump in and tell you this can't be true, if you aren't sure go and read the Treason Act.

As for civil disobedience, my personal feelings are that once Parliament started to act in its own interests instead of the interests of the nation then that point has come.
The moment Parliament introduced the smoking ban but excempt itself from that ban is when the rule of law and democracy in this country took a nosedive. Our politicians created one law for the public and another law for themselves. They lost all moral authority to govern from that point. Civil disobedience is long overdue. Don't hold your breath for it making any difference though.
I have been considering this very point for quite some time now. My only reservations are about its effectiveness but it is certainly warranted.
 
#3
No need for civil disobedience. Undermining the happy constitution by which the Queen is sole fount of justice and there can be but one law, that of the Realm. It is treason. So just ask the Queen via the Lords for immediate remedy. When it is not forthcoming invoke the right of lawful rebellion till the Queen obeys her Coronation Oath and we quit Europe and return to one Law in our Realm only.

Look up Brian Buxton (ex Royal Marine Commando) Head of the Popular Alliance Party.
 
#4
I put the linkie to a relevant Common Law Information site as an example of what we should do about James Shortt. It is on the Baron Castleshort 4 thread. The linkie to the silent majority type site.
 
#5
It depends on what is classed as civil disobedience, if a government has drafted and hurried new laws in to make the most innocent of actions classed as wrong under laws, I mean who would consider taking a photograph a terrorist act?
Passive demonstrations I feel are a right, not the rent a mob type that the press seem to manage to find, but the type that Ghandi used, it is disobedient but it does not go towards the violent type of march..
As for the question of no taxation without representtation towards the EU I would like to agree with you, it is pushing through too much too fast without thinking of the consequences, however there are many EU countries that do not take all of the EU dictats on, unlike us, and no I am not a total anti european, as a common market it was fine as a Union it will not work.
The only Eu that could work is, Britain in charge, France catering, Italy Wines member, Germany planning and road building
 
#6
Like aunching us into at least one deeply unwise war, buggering about with habeas corpus, installing CCTV up everyone's Jacksie, filching expenses while deficit spending like a crack whore, giving The City a deregulated license to steal pensions and then bailing the bunglers with your grand kids taxes. The disorders appear to be systemic and largely a product of a national governed by a class of folk that don't give a toss about its people. Plenty to riot about quite apart from the burghers of Brussels meddling with your sacred sausage.
 
#7
"When Injustice Becomes Law Resistance Becomes Duty" - Adam Kokesh
 
#8
jagman said:
There is actually a little known part of the Treason Act that requires individuals in Britain to NOT pay tax to a government guilty of treason.
The same Treason Act makes it absolutely clear that the Lisbon Treaty is treason.
There are a number of Treason Acts the elements of most of them have been repealed. Thus, we have the Treason Acts of 1351, 1695, 1708, 1795 (repealed), 1814, 1817, 1842 and Treason Felony Act 1845.

Nowhere in any element of the above Acts which survive at law is there any authority for the contention you claim.

Source: Westlaw/Lexis/Nexis
 
#9
do you have any suggestions then iolis? if there are any relevant laws, it may be useful.

I would think any civil disobedience would need to be massive for it to have the desired effect. if only a few stop paying tax for example, it is easy for the state to make an example of them. if thousands do it ....
 
#10
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
 
#11
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
do we really want to live in an undomocratic state, under the heel of the EU with little of no choice in the laws we are subject to?

As i say, a basic, perhaps most fundamental principle of democracy, is;

"No taxation without representation!"

Maybe I should take a trip to see a legal type person to decern the options.

Perhaps it would be better to start a campaign;

If the lisbon treaty comes into effect, we will refuse to pay tax!
 
#12
Okay, I'll phone Glasgow tomorrow and tell then not to deduct my tax from now on
 
#13
SkiCarver said:
As i say, a basic, perhaps most fundamental principle of democracy, is;

"No taxation without representation!"

Maybe I should take a trip to see a legal type person to decern the options.

Perhaps it would be better to start a campaign;

If the lisbon treaty comes into effect, we will refuse to pay tax!
You do get representation, every 5 years (maximum) we all get to choose who we want to run the goverment.
 
T

trowel

Guest
#14
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
Think about all the overtime you would be picking up, just like the plod picked up during the destruction of our mining industry. Fix bayonets. Advance. No prisoners. They are only tax paying scum afterall.
 
#15
trowel said:
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
Think about all the overtime you would be picking up, just like the plod picked up during the destruction of our mining industry. Fix bayonets. Advance. No prisoners. They are only tax paying scum afterall.
When the bloody hell do the army get overtime? Have I been missing out on it all these years?
 
#16
stacker1 said:
trowel said:
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
Think about all the overtime you would be picking up, just like the plod picked up during the destruction of our mining industry. Fix bayonets. Advance. No prisoners. They are only tax paying scum afterall.
When the bloody hell do the army get overtime? Have I been missing out on it all these years?
JPA mate, easy peezy. Just make up a claim
 
T

trowel

Guest
#17
stacker1 said:
trowel said:
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
Think about all the overtime you would be picking up, just like the plod picked up during the destruction of our mining industry. Fix bayonets. Advance. No prisoners. They are only tax paying scum afterall.
When the bloody hell do the army get overtime? Have I been missing out on it all these years?
Just a bit of cynicism Stacker, pay no mind.
 
#18
SkiCarver said:
I have been thinking that the current government are contemptable and a number of their policies severely compromise basic democratic principles. Not least in this is the transfer of soverignty to the undemocratic organisation that is the EU
This issue came before Lord Denning in the Court of Appeal in 1971 in Blackburn v Attorney General [1971] 2 All E.R. 1380. Mr Blackburn brought an action against the Attorney General for a declaration that by Signing the Treaty of Rome, the Crown in Parliament had illegally surrendered its sovereignty to the European Union, that Parliament had limited its own sovereignty which was constitutionally impossible. Needless to say, Denning made short work of him. The courts have no augthority to impugn Parliament's Treaty-Making powers and that in any event, the European Communities Act 1972 which gave effect to EU Law in domestic legislation could at any time be repealed by Parliament.

I certainly agree that our own politicians are devoid of any moral or ethical constraints upon their behaviour but, apart from the usual parrotted cries that the EU is 'undemocratic' those who lay such a claim find it difficult to say just 'how' itis undemocratic.

We have just had elections for the European Parliament and I fail to see how the United Kingdom is not represented in the law-making body of the European Union.

However, the answer is probably outside the scope of this thread which appears to be principally concerned with the issue of when and under what circumstances civil disobedience is justified.
 
#19
AFA06 said:
stacker1 said:
trowel said:
AFA06 said:
Civil disobedience would result in the Army being deployed to counter it. Don't really want that do we!!
Think about all the overtime you would be picking up, just like the plod picked up during the destruction of our mining industry. Fix bayonets. Advance. No prisoners. They are only tax paying scum afterall.
When the bloody hell do the army get overtime? Have I been missing out on it all these years?
JPA mate, easy peezy. Just make up a claim
Be an MP walt? I think not.
 
#20
Iolis said:
We have just had elections for the European Parliament and I fail to see how the United Kingdom is not represented in the law-making body of the European Union.
two points.

the UK government have ceded soverignty to the EU without a mandate from the people. We were not given a chance to decide for ourselves if we wanted the EU constitution as the labour party promised to do in its election manifesto. therefore, any transfer of power to the EU is fundamentally undemocratic.

The EU itself is aa elected parliament with very little power, and 27 members of the supreme soviet, er I mean EU comission, who run everything and decide which laws we have. they are basically accountable only to themselves and we have little or no influence over their behaviour. The EU has a dressing of democracy, but it is rotton to its core.

I believe there is a strong case that the lisbon treaty truely represents the end of the UK democracy, and as such, I (and any free person in this country) have a duty not to support an undemocratic state through payment of taxes.

My reason for posting the thread, is to hear what arguments there are for and against this position and and what people actually consider to be worth civil protest.
 

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