When did the German people lose control of their country?

#1
Despite what some people would have you think the German people voted for Hitler and the National Socialist Party in 1933. They liked the jumped up Austrian Corporal with a penchant for his young niece naked.

So, when did the German people lose the ability to remove the party from power? Assuming they decided they didn't like a tee-totaler with a dodgy moustache annexing Austria (though most did like it...) at what point were the Gestapo and the laws of the land such that it was more or less out of the hands of the German people?

In addition to that - when do you think the German population would have voted out the Nazis if they had been able? Would it have been before Poland? After? After France, but before Russia? Only when they started losing? Would there have been a poor turnout while they would "wait and see" if the Russia excursion was going well? I can't believe the party would have been voted out in 1941, or even 1942 as the government had been incredibly succesful, the majority of the population was NOT being deported/shot and Russia was seen as Germany's natural enemy. Although would this have been purely due to brainwashing/Nazi youth?
 
#3
Geordie_Blerk said:
Do you require answers in order to mark the children's test papers?
I require you to fcuk off to the hole you're from and leave threads where people are looking for answers from people with more than two braincells to rub together.
 
#4
Obviously it is very hard to know the opinions of the population living in a police state. But one interesting indication is the popularity of the name "Adolf" for children, since this is something people can decide on without much risk of trouble with the authorities. The figures are here
and show a steep fall starting about 1940 (hard to be sure from the graph)
 
#5
crabby said:
Geordie_Blerk said:
Do you require answers in order to mark the children's test papers?
I require you to fcuk off to the hole you're from and leave threads where people are looking for answers from people with more than two braincells to rub together.
Do you still have cold sweats thinking about the thread you posted on this site prior to you becoming a teacher?

You know which one I'm referring to don't you?

I truly believe you should have used your own braincells on that occasion you grubby little boy.
 
#6
Geordie_Blerk said:
You know which one I'm referring to don't you?

I truly believe you should have used your own braincells on that occasion you grubby little boy.
I know exactly which one you're referring to. You're right about the second point as well.

on_leave - thanks, I hadn't seen that before. Interesting how that's not actually a massive jump in popularity between 1933 and 1940 - the rise 39/40 could be accounted for as a natural fluctuation as seen in previous years. Yet the massive decline through the late war years and post-war years is incredibly.
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
Book Reviewer
#7
I would imagine that if you've been unemployed and starving,your currency is about worthless and a man comes along and promises to change all that he would be appealling
Then once he's in power he actually delivers and starts to make your country powerful
You go to war on a pretence and defeat everyone
Anywhere you go up against your nearest rival (the UK) you don't just defeat them you drive them into the sea

Until Stalingrad and the bombing raids on Germany I would imagine life was pretty good for the normal German population
It's worth remembering that some towns like Dresden life was pretty good and normal right up until 1945
We can read that Circuses and theatres were still operating and IIRC there were compalints that life after the war under the western allies was worse in some towns
I seem to remember reading that the British cut the ration in Hamburg once they took it over
The factories were going pretty much flat out right until the end

Even such people like Von Stauffenbirg didn't turn against him until after 1942
Even then that was to negotiate with western allies I wonder how high the Jews and other Germans were on their list or was it just to save themselves from total defeat?

No doubt he was populer for a period that many people don't turn up at a rally for no reason
If he hadn't attacked Russia they might still be in power now (have you read Fatherland?)

Would the population of Britain turned on Churchill if it had all gone wrong for us?
 
#8
I believe that the rot set in following the Reichstag fire of February 1933.
Hitler managed to get some emergency powers passed by President Hindenburg on the back of the fire, and these emergency powers later metamorphosised into the infamous 'Enabling' act of March 1933, which in effect gave Hitler the power to rule by decree and without the need for Cabinet or Reichstag involvement.

The 'Enabling' act allowed further legislation (1935 Nuremburg laws etc) to be inflicted on the Germans therefore removing any hint of democracy from their system.
 
#9
Crabby - I'd say it is quite a jump in the years after 1933, compared with what might have been expected by extending the gentle decline that was going on from 1890 to 1932. Certainly nothing like as dramatic as the fall in the forties, I'll grant you.
Might be interesting to see what North Koreans or Iranians are calling their children these days. Or seeing how many Saudis have little Osamas crawling around.
 
#10
I think it was Liddell Hart who, after interviewing hundreds of German civilians after VE-Day, noted that the overwhelming majority still supported Hitler - or would have done if he'd still been around...... I don't think there is actually any evidence to suggest Hitler would actually have lost a democratic mandate until the latter part of the war.

I think it was the Enabling Act of 23 Mar 33 which was the democratic turning point - it legally empowered Hitler's cabinet to introduce laws with no Reichstag consultation for an initial 4-year period.
 
#11
Did the german people ever really have control after 1933??as the little corporal and his crew got more powerful, as in any dictatorship people with different opinions were ostracised and just disappeared, families were sucked in by all the newjobs and policies being taught in the schools, which eventually taught the children to betray friends and neighbours, andif you were not a party member you were cut off.Many of us Served in minden, herford or nienburg, take minden for example always a Kaiser treue town who fought and struggled against the nazi party, who over the period 1934 to 1945 lost 80% of the male population between 16 and 70 years of age who just simply disappeared , died, forced into Penal companies of the arbeits dienst,and after 1937 straight into the labour camps!but still they kept up the resistance, Many of these men and women who survived went on to be come the back bone of the new german police and Bundeswehr after the war. Minden is proud of its Heritage and loyalty to the kaisers going back to 1682 , Mindens Burgerbattalions proudly remember this and their fallen comrades every 2 years with the Freischiessen,Any of you young soldiers or old farts who come back to Baor for a holiday visit Hausberge the other sideof the brige from the Porta Westfalica, take a walk up into the mountain and hidden in the woods you will find the massed graves of the germans who did not want to lose control of their country. Lest we forget
 
#12
Nignoy said:
Did the german people ever really have control after 1933??as the little corporal and his crew got more powerful, as in any dictatorship people with different opinions were ostracised and just disappeared, families were sucked in by all the newjobs and policies being taught in the schools, which eventually taught the children to betray friends and neighbours, andif you were not a party member you were cut off.
So if the German people had been aware of what was going on with a supposedly free press do you think they would have supported the Nazis? Even without the culture of fear the Nazi party surely brought back a sense of pride and also outwardly of renewed economic prosperity (based on loans and the war machine). Would this have kept them popular with the majority (or like 34% which was Labour's share in 2005) despite fierce resistance in some areas?
 
T

Tremaine

Guest
#13
Nignoy said:
Did the german people ever really have control after 1933??as the little corporal and his crew got more powerful, as in any dictatorship people with different opinions were ostracised and just disappeared, families were sucked in by all the newjobs and policies being taught in the schools, which eventually taught the children to betray friends and neighbours, andif you were not a party member you were cut off.Many of us Served in minden, herford or nienburg, take minden for example always a Kaiser treue town who fought and struggled against the nazi party, who over the period 1934 to 1945 lost 80% of the male population between 16 and 70 years of age who just simply disappeared , died, forced into Penal companies of the arbeits dienst,and after 1937 straight into the labour camps!but still they kept up the resistance, Many of these men and women who survived went on to be come the back bone of the new german police and Bundeswehr after the war. Minden is proud of its Heritage and loyalty to the kaisers going back to 1682 , Mindens Burgerbattalions proudly remember this and their fallen comrades every 2 years with the Freischiessen,Any of you young soldiers or old farts who come back to Baor for a holiday visit Hausberge the other sideof the brige from the Porta Westfalica, take a walk up into the mountain and hidden in the woods you will find the massed graves of the germans who did not want to lose control of their country. Lest we forget
Fook me, all that time I spent in Minden (664 Sqn) in the nineties and I never knew that. We all used to walk round Porta Westfalica, and Kaiser Bill's statue (the old mother in law went hang gliding up there). German family,and they never let on. :?
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#14
the boy syrup - 'I would imagine that if you've been unemployed and starving,your currency is about worthless and a man comes along and promises to change all that he would be appealling
Then once he's in power he actually delivers and starts to make your country powerful
You go to war on a pretence and defeat everyone
Anywhere you go up against your nearest rival (the UK) you don't just defeat them you drive them into the sea'

shame this government seems determined to do all this in reverse... ;)

this is a fascinating subject to me, as my family on my father side were resident in Jersey during ww2 - I've always been led to believe that the Nazis didnt show their true colours (in terms of what the final solution would *really* mean) till quite late on in the thirties.. by which time I would have imagined the domestic police would have been well under control for the most part, making any formal protests or opposition almost impossible. did anyone know what was coming in 1930-33? or would they have just been grateful to get back on their feet after the economic chaos of the weimar republic?
 
#15
crabby - "So, when did the German people lose the ability to remove the party from power?...........at what point were the Gestapo and the laws of the land such that it was more or less out of the hands of the German people?"

I think you've already had the point with the Enabling Act of 1933, the suspension of guarantees regarding civil liberties in the necessary interest of National security, when following the Reichstag fire, (blamed on Communist anarchy), Hitler convinced the Reichstag (approx. 440 to 80) to ‘temporarily delegate its powers to him’.

Not that it was intended to disenfranchise the German people, but because it was an excellent vehicle for Hitler to develop stage two of his agenda. Stage one of course is to get into power, stage two to ensure staying there and exploiting the position. As far as Fritz Public was concerned, Hitler’s promise of a new Germany was appealing and did attract them. Common support for Hitler’s National Socialist Party did increase, fall and increase, though he never had a majority in the Reichstag until they voted him the ‘temporary powers’.

While it was only ‘promise’, Fritz had overwhelming examples of how badly things had gone for them and Germany in the hands of the old school. Helping Adolph’s image with the old school was the very real threat of Communism as an alternative, right across Europe. One thing with Communism is the old school and ruling classes go – violently if necessary – while with fascism they get to stay around. Sometimes a case of getting your hand out jar with half the sweets being better than not getting it out at all.

You mention the Gestapo, but they came about shortly after the Enabling Act. The majority of ‘men-in-tights’ before then were the SA , plus Hitler’s expanding SS bodyguard. If you consider there was still any public control after the Enabling Act, for sure all traces disappeared less than four months later when Adolf banned all other political parties. Just like Musso in Italy, if there are elections they’re theatre as while you are no doubt allowed to freely vote for anyone you like, only party approved people get to be candidates – ‘any colour you want as long as it’s black’. :D (OK, for the pedants, Ford never actually said that :roll: ).

The following year Adolf deletes the SA hierarchy, Hindenburg died, Adolf takes his job as well, so game set and match. 8O

Re ‘voting out the nazis’ (as if), seeing as only the ‘chosen people’ would be allowed to vote, I think in many respects they were caught-up in the ‘dream’ and only began to hurt when their friends and family didn’t return.

No.9
 
#16
I remember asking our German Typist back in say 74 what she thought of Hitler when she was a young girl.
She said words to the effect of
Oh we thought he was great. With him came mass employment, everyone had a job and he restored National Pride.
I never asked when she or the German people turned against he, for I must admit, I thought she and so many Germans still had a sneaking Pride in the Austrian Corporal.
john
 
#17
I'd say that the German people didn't lose control of their country under Hitler. They gave that control away by voting for the NSDAP. You have to remember that the NSDAP was legally elected in 1933. Hitler & Co may have consolidated their power in questionable ways but that is the nature of politicians of all hues, as a look at government and legislation in the European Union and the United States in recent times shows.

Since this is a British website, we don't even have to look abroad. We just have to look at the record of New Labour. Germans had control of their country and their destiny from 1918 to 1945. The DDR was under the control of Moscow until 1989 and the BRD was firmly under the control of the countries occupying it. The BRD remains an occupied country to this day, with strict controls imposed in 1945 and 1946 by the Allied victors still in force, even if Fritz Public might feel free as he walks down the street. He has no more control over his country and his circumstances than any other ordinary person in the European Union.

Hitler is troubling because he speaks to the monster in all of us, even from beyond the grave. Hitler was approved of by many people in Germany and around the world in the 1930s because he got six million unemployed Germans back to work in less time than it took for Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal to kick in. The masses tend to like quick fixes, regardless of how they are implemented or financed. This is why our leaders in the West today are becoming increasingly nervous about political extremists offering quick-sounding fixes to the West's problems, within the parameters imposed by anti-racism legislation.

Hitler's political formula was very simple. He was a decorated former frontline soldier who stood up and expressed what a great many people felt. He put it all into simple, clear language for them, no matter how inarticulate they were. Germany had been betrayed by the moneybags and their lackeys and the only people who had profited from the Great War and the consequent collapse and degradation of Germany were the Jews. He gave the mob what mobs always want: reasons to hate and people to blame.

Once he was elected, after a rocky period in which the economy briefly recovered and NSDAP membership plummeted, he set about consolidating his powerbase. In order to achieve this aim, he proceeded to betray the National Socialist revolution by selling out to the very same people the Nazis had held responsible for the Catastrophe of 1918. The Jews remained a target of Hitlerian bile and Nazi racial policies but many powerful Jews got a free pass in the form of a blind eye turned to their ethnicity and even official "Aryanisation". Politics always finds an accomodation with Money.

Truth be known, the Holocaust was appalling but no more immoral than the genocidal and democidal initiatives of other European nations at various times. Hitler's worldview was essentially neo-imperialist. He and his lieutenants looked eastwards because the rest of the world was in the possession of Britain, France, Holland, Spain and Portugal. Germany's colonial possessions had been stolen and divvied up by the Allies in 1918.

Mind you, Germany behaved very badly in south-west Africa before the 1914-1918 War. But then, everyone else behaved just as badly in various places at various times. The main difference was that those victims did not have cousins in the USA who wielded substantial power in modern communications like the media and cinema. As usual, the Germans bit off more than they could chew and lost their "Holy War" against World Jewry, along with the two World Wars and a World Cup.

Today is the 120th anniversary of Hitler's birth. Ridiculing him is intellectually lazy. He was a highly cunning, accomplished politician and demagogue whose rise was endorsed by many perfectly ordinary and reasonable people at the time, who saw him as a bulwark against the spread of Moscow-sponsored Bolshevism. You have to remember how terrified people were of the Reds. Informed people knew of the nine million Ukrainians killed in 1931/32 by NKVD death squads and forced starvation, amongst all the other atrocities of the Soviet regime. They saw Moscow's hand in political developments in Spain and France. Bolshevism was a serious menace. Nazism did not seem to be a menace by comparison.

The Nazis' anti-semitic rhetoric was not very offensive by the standards of the day, certainly no more offensive than, say, the anti-Islamic rhetoric of our times. People were perturbed by the violence of Kristallnacht in 1938 but in most cases, it was only because it made Germany look bad abroad. As long as it was handled discreetly, most people were just glad it wasn't happening to them, like the crowds who used to attend public executions. A lot of people today would turn a blind eye if Muslims living in the EU and US were being packed into trains and 'relocated'. Operators like Hitler & Co knew human nature. After all, Hitler himself said: "Who remembers the Armenians?".

As long as Germany was functioning, Germans did not care who was in charge. They let Hitler get on with it and only started bleating when it was clear that the war was lost. After the war, they were obedient to the foreign powers running East Germany and West Germany. Since reunification and the beginning of the end of the "economic miracle" funded by the United States, more Germans have questioned the status quo but the tendency seems to be to favour a return to some form of dictatorship - the good old days - because Germans, like anyone else, will happily shirk the assumption of personal responsibility for their lives if there is a Hitler, a Honecker or an indulgent Onkle Sam to assume it for them.

They didn't lose control of their own country, old chap, they gave it away, just as they will always give it away. Why else do you think the place is currently governed by a motley crew of ex-DDR communists and European Unionist fellow-travellers? The closest to freedom that Germany, as created by Bismarck, has come was during the Weimar and Third Reich eras. Weimar was a little too free for them so they voted en masse for Hitler & Co. Under Hitler, the majority of Germans were very free indeed to feel wonderful about themselves and their Fatherland without having to assume any personal responsibility at all. And that is a very seductive form of freedom indeed...

PK

[edited for typo on 21.4.2009 - PK]
 
#18
the_boy_syrup said:
Until Stalingrad and .....
I think the first strategic action the Wehrmacht lost was the Battle for Moscow. But it wasn't popularised by Stalin as the initial feckups made by the Red Army (failure to deploy, unable to recce forward positions, ignoring reliable intelligence etc) was down to direct orders from Papa Joe himself, who didn't believe Hitler would attack at that point in time.

That the Red Army did recover and defend Moscow is almost miraculous in itself. People like Von Manstein and Guderian knew exactly how serious this was and that it boded il for the future.

As an intersting aside (and nothing to do with this thread) it is estimated that the Red Army statistically underwent a complete change of manpower 3 times over between 1941 and 1945.
 
#19
You don't vote a party out of office, you vote another one in.

Unfortunately if the address of the opposition party is Kiln no 4, Bergen-Belsen, it is hard for them to accept the mandate.
 

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