When ARE we subject to Military Discipline?

[Bravo_Bravo]

Obviously when having signed a paysheet.

But what about when we haven't? When going about life in general?

I hear that we are ALWAYS subject to it, but that doesn't sound right, if we aren't getting paid.

Whats the score?

 

[Bravo_Bravo]

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

 

[jockparamedic]

Pretty sure nowadays it's only when you are signed in. It used to be that officers (reserves) were subject to military law at all times and that other ranks were when travelling to and from duty but i am sure that all ranks are the same now.

 

[FORMER_FYRDMAN]

I was given to understand that the answer was 'at all times' if you were commissioned and when on duty for everyone else. Why? What have you done?

 

[FORMER_FYRDMAN]

Pretty sure nowadays it's only when you are signed in. It used to be that officers (reserves) were subject to military law at all times and that other ranks were when travelling to and from duty but i am sure that all ranks are the same now.

Snap.

 

[The_Snail]

Obviously when having signed a paysheet.

But what about when we haven't? When going about life in general?

I hear that we are ALWAYS subject to it, but that doesn't sound right, if we aren't getting paid.

Whats the score?

There's a thread about this somewhere, and if you force me to have to use the search function to find an answer for you, I will be very, very miffed..

 

[Bravo_Bravo]

Why? What have you done?

I'm saying nowt...

Actually, its something I've wondered about for some time. In V&S lessons we say that the blokes are subject to Military Discipline at all times, but if we aren't getting paid, how can this be?

 

[The_Snail]

I'm saying nowt...

Actually, its something I've wondered about for some time. In V&S lessons we say that the blokes are subject to Military Discipline at all times, but if we aren't getting paid, how can this be?

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/ta-officer-military-law-discipline-at-all-times.18065/page-2

You're dead to me now.

Dead.

 

[Offendi]

Obviously when having signed a paysheet.

But what about when we haven't? When going about life in general?

I hear that we are ALWAYS subject to it, but that doesn't sound right, if we aren't getting paid.

Whats the score?

Right.

It seems that persons may be subject to either 'service law' or 'service discipline'.

Regular forces are subject to both at all times except specific reserve forces acts and clauses. Obviously.

Each act specifies who may or may not be subject and under what circumstances.

This also answers some recent questions about pad's brats and wives. Here is the relevant document.

Paras 10-13.. Para 12 seems to answer your question best.
12.
A reservist undertaking service under any of paragraph 11a – c and e above will be
subject to Service law during the whole period of that service whether they is travelling,
physically working, resting or off duty. This is different in respect of duties undertaken under paragraph 11d above (this is likely to be most relevant to members of volunteer reserve forces attending short periods of training or duty).Broadly speaking, such a personwill be subject to Service law while they are with their reserve force. So, for example, where they attends an 8 hour training period on a Saturday they will be subject to Service law during the time of the training period only and not when they is driving to the period or returning home from it. Staff legal advice should be obtained if there is any doubt as to whether a reservist was subject
to Service law at the time they committed the alleged offence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/249377/msl_vol1_Ch03.pdf

And you an SSM!

 

[BuggerAll]

I quote from TA (sic) regulations (which are available on ArmyNet):
___________________________________________________________________________________________
3.082. Discipline and Service Law. Discipline is a fundamental requirement of effective Armed Forces. Service Law is an additional body of law that applies to the Armed Services which is contained in the 2006 Act and extant provisions in earlier Armed Forces Acts. Every member of the TA must be aware when they are subject to Service Law which is, as set out in Section 367 of the 2006 Act, when they are:

a. In Permanent Service, i.e. mobilized.
b. In Full Time Reserve Service (FTRS).
c. Undertaking Additional Duty Commitment (ADC).
d. On Training and Other Duties.
e. Serving as Permanent Staff, i.e. NRPS.

The 1980 and 1996 Acts are not Service Law, and apply at all times to all reservists. Indiscipline has no place in the
Army and is to be addressed by either formal disciplinary action or administrative action under AGAI 67.

3.083. Disciplinary and Administrative Action. The distinction between disciplinary and administrative action is
important. As a general rule, disciplinary action should be used where there is evidence that an offence has been
committed, where the application of Service Law is appropriate, and where an individual should, if convicted, be
punished. Minor administrative action is intended to correct professional and personal shortcomings. It should not be used as a substitute for disciplinary action. When minor administrative action is taken, the sanction should fit the
professional failing and be clearly designed to correct it, not to punish the individual. Major administrative action,
which includes discharge from the Service, may be taken in conjunction with, or following, disciplinary action. Whilst
TA personnel and officers of the Cadet Forces are not subject to Service Law at all times, they are subject to Army
Values and Standards and Administrative Action at all times.

3.084. Explanation to Soldiers. The disciplinary provisions of the 1996 and 2006 Acts are to be explained to soldiers and officers during initial training. Any TA personnel suspected of committing an offence are to be made aware of their legal rights as explained in Annex G to Chapter 6 of the Manual of Service Law (MSL) “Your rights if you are accused of an offence under the Service justice system”.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

This would appear to be different from my understanding which was that officers were 'on duty' at all times and ORs when signed in or when under arms (carrying fire arms or ammo). This would appear to say that its the same for officers and soldiers and its when "On Training and Other Duties" with no requirement to sign in / out.

I will do a bit of digging because its not something I've been informed of.

 

[Bravo_Bravo]

Right.

It seems that persons may be subject to either 'service law' or 'service discipline'.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/249377/msl_vol1_Ch03.pdf

Really useful - thanks.

It seems that 1-3-5 ( basically, when on duty / getting paid) is at odds with AGAI 69. Logical, really; I struggle to see how a non-Commissioned Reservist can be subject to Service Discipline if not getting paid / undertaking Military duties ( to include C1 ).

 

[eodmatt]

They cant get at me here because I am out of British legal jurisdiction, a fact that I found out by by accident. Not that I GAF, nor do I have any reason for hiding, but having been through the divorce courts bollox in the UK I can say that it is all actually bollox.

 

[jarrod248]

They cant get at me here because I am out of British legal jurisdiction, a fact that I found out by by accident. Not that I GAF, nor do I have any reason for hiding, but having been through the divorce courts bollox in the UK I can say that it is all actually bollox.

Didn't Mr. Gadd think the same?

 

[jockparamedic]

I think that the TA regs are saying is that; AGAI proceedings can be taken against you for something you have done outside of your Reserve commitement eg: a civvy offence when it is deemed to be in contravention of the Forces V & S.
There is a recent example of this in my unit.

 

[Steven]

Right.

It seems that persons may be subject to either 'service law' or 'service discipline'.

Regular forces are subject to both at all times except specific reserve forces acts and clauses. Obviously.

Each act specifies who may or may not be subject and under what circumstances.

This also answers some recent questions about pad's brats and wives. Here is the relevant document.

Paras 10-13.. Para 12 seems to answer your question best.
12.
A reservist undertaking service under any of paragraph 11a – c and e above will be
subject to Service law during the whole period of that service whether they is travelling,
physically working, resting or off duty. This is different in respect of duties undertaken under paragraph 11d above (this is likely to be most relevant to members of volunteer reserve forces attending short periods of training or duty).Broadly speaking, such a personwill be subject to Service law while they are with their reserve force. So, for example, where they attends an 8 hour training period on a Saturday they will be subject to Service law during the time of the training period only and not when they is driving to the period or returning home from it. Staff legal advice should be obtained if there is any doubt as to whether a reservist was subject
to Service law at the time they committed the alleged offence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/249377/msl_vol1_Ch03.pdf

And you an SSM!

Please tell me you typed that out by hand and didn't copy and paste it?

"whether they is travelling,"?

 

[eodmatt]

Didn't Mr. Gadd think the same?

I have no reason to fear the British legal system. .As for Gadd. He thought that in Vietnam he could shag little girls with impunity. He was wrong. But the fact that there is no reciprocal law in Vietnam that allows British child molesters to be repatriated to "easy" prisons in the UK means that he had to serve two years in a Vietnam prison, before being fucked off back to uk.

The c-unt

 

[Offendi]

Please tell me you typed that out by hand and didn't copy and paste it?

"whether they is travelling,"?

Nope. I copied and pasted. I noticed it too, but presumed that the pamphlet was written by Windsor Davies.

 

[BuggerAll]

No I'm afraid the authors are using a rather strange grammatical convention of gender neutral plurals (they and their for he/she and his/hers) with singular auxiliary verbs (is and was instead of are and were). Not being a grammar Nazi I'm not sure if its grammatically correct but it certainly reads very oddly.

 

[jockparamedic]

I'm pretty sure that while typing in MS word it doesn't like using "are" and usually flags it up as a grammatical error. Could be an American thing.

 

[wetsmonkey]

I'm saying nowt...

Actually, its something I've wondered about for some time. In V&S lessons we say that the blokes are subject to Military Discipline at all times, but if we aren't getting paid, how can this be?

I am subject to police regs when off duty and not being paid. A full time job I know but if it helps you feel better feel free.


Wets.