What would make you buy an electric car?

There is a bigger issue to be solved first. Who is paying for it?
Blind guess; the private sector will see it as a very attractive investment opportunity and will raise money through a mix of debt and equity funding. They’ll be able to borrow readily at low rates because there’s a near guaranteed long term revenue stream. And they’ll be using big data to drive the whole process.

Meanwhile, there’ll still be Luddites and doubting Thomases who select and combine tiny samples of micro data to try to prove that it can’t work.

I know which side I’m on.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
Reading that it appears to me that these electric cars probably emit just as much pollution if not more than a modern petrol unit.
I mean how much Energy does it take to completely scrap and recycle these cars compared to today’s cars? (And the man hours£££.)
A lot more, all those chemical processes to separate all those components, and yet have the powers to be factored in all this?
Have we in the U.K. got the requisite power stations? I would say 2030 is a pipe dream and until the world can efficiently dismantle and re cycle these batteries that’s what it will remain.
Will we just pass the buck and send them to China and India? Probably.
Saying all that if I had a windfall I’d love the new Mustang e by Ford.
 

anglo

LE
It was frigging mid summer in 2018. Flat calm day, temperature in the high 80s, Azores High fully formed and no wind. Until the sea breeze kicked in.

No, they weren’t motoring the turbines to prevent icing. And no, it hasn’t recently “emerged” that they motor the turbines in cold weather. It’s always happened and always been known. By anyone who has the slightest understanding of wind power.

Here you are
If you care to notice, I try to give a source for all my quotes

Using the generator as a motor (to help the blades start to turn when the wind speed is low or, as many suspect, to maintain the illusion that the facility is producing electricity when it is not,particularly during important site tours or noise testing (keeping the blades feathered, ie, quiet)) — it seems possible that the grid-magnetized stator must work to help keep the 40-ton blade assembly spinning, along with the gears that increase the blade rpm some 50 times for the generator, not just at cut-in (or for show in even less wind) but at least some of the way up towards the full rated wind speed; it may also be spinning the blades and rotor shaft to prevent warping when there is no wind

In large rotating power trains such as this, if allowed to stand motionless for any period of time, the unit will experience "bowing" of shafts and rotors under the tremendous weight. Therefore, frequent rotating of the unit is necessary to prevent this. As an example, even in port Navy ships keep their propeller shafts and turbine power trains slowly rotating. It is referred to as "jacking the shaft" to prevent any tendency to bow. Any bowing would throw the whole train out of balance with potentially very serious damage when bringing the power train back on line.


As you say
By anyone who has the slightest understanding of wind power.
 
Here you are
If you care to notice, I try to give a source for all my quotes

Using the generator as a motor (to help the blades start to turn when the wind speed is low or, as many suspect, to maintain the illusion that the facility is producing electricity when it is not,particularly during important site tours or noise testing (keeping the blades feathered, ie, quiet)) — it seems possible that the grid-magnetized stator must work to help keep the 40-ton blade assembly spinning, along with the gears that increase the blade rpm some 50 times for the generator, not just at cut-in (or for show in even less wind) but at least some of the way up towards the full rated wind speed; it may also be spinning the blades and rotor shaft to prevent warping when there is no wind

In large rotating power trains such as this, if allowed to stand motionless for any period of time, the unit will experience "bowing" of shafts and rotors under the tremendous weight. Therefore, frequent rotating of the unit is necessary to prevent this. As an example, even in port Navy ships keep their propeller shafts and turbine power trains slowly rotating. It is referred to as "jacking the shaft" to prevent any tendency to bow. Any bowing would throw the whole train out of balance with potentially very serious damage when bringing the power train back on line.


As you say
By anyone who has the slightest understanding of wind power.













By anyone who has the slightest understanding of wind power.
Enough with the facts!!! Much rather read about someone's sailing exploits to explain wind power generation ;-)
 

Chef

LE
You cast your vote and take your chance. If the politicos are pursuing this agenda for brownie points then that implies there are points to be had. I may be wrong but I don’t see this shift towards greener strategies is going to change, it seems to be what people want.

There has been some some talk of hydrogen cars on here. The truth is if EVs are so crap, and hydrogen is the answer, we all have the power to change that. Go out and buy hydrogen cars en masse and the manufacturers will overwhelmingly cater to that need. Right now a lot of people are making the change, hence the manufacturers offerings are changing, so the infrastructure and supply will race to keep up.

Plan or no the world continues to change
I agree that plan or no plan the world continues to move. The green movement is driven by politics rather than practicalities or profit. This may or may not be a good thing.

'I don’t see this shift towards greener strategies is going to change, it seems to be what people want.'

The same 'green' strategy that saw people 'encouraged' to buy diesel powered vehicles? If the government really wanted to make a difference ban the sale of mobile phones. There's a massive amount of rare earths that won't be used. Ban the sale of Helium for balloons, it's irreplaceable. But these things are popular and won't win votes.

'Go out and buy hydrogen cars en masse'.

There aren't many hydrogen cars available:

There are only two currently available in the UK: the Toyota Mirai saloon and the Hyundai NEXO SUV, while at the 2019 Frankfurt Motor Show, BMW showed an X5 with a hydrogen fuel cell that it says won't be available to buy until 2025. A second-generation Toyota Mirai arrives in 2021.

So good luck with a mass purchase.

No there is no plan, if it goes tits up those who've instigated it will still be cutting about the place in petrol cars and jetting around the world to conferences and seminars in lovely locations.

Joe Public on the other hand will be making do with whatever he's given, 'To save the planet'.


To quote Paul Weller 'The public wants what the public gets'.
 

bob231

War Hero
As an example, even in port Navy ships keep their propeller shafts and turbine power trains slowly rotating. It is referred to as "jacking the shaft" to prevent any tendency to bow. Any bowing would throw the whole train out of balance with potentially very serious damage when bringing the power train back on line.
Where did you find this interesting tidbit?

Shafts will bow and bearings will brinel (although short shafts with several bearings won't bow in any meaningful way) but this is not an instantaneous process.
 

Chef

LE
Where did you find this interesting tidbit?

Shafts will bow and bearings will brinel (although short shafts with several bearings won't bow in any meaningful way) but this is not an instantaneous process.
There you go


I didn't know that.
 

anglo

LE
Reading that it appears to me that these electric cars probably emit just as much pollution if not more than a modern petrol unit.
I mean how much Energy does it take to completely scrap and recycle these cars compared to today’s cars? (And the man hours£££.)
A lot more, all those chemical processes to separate all those components, and yet have the powers to be factored in all this?
Have we in the U.K. got the requisite power stations? I would say 2030 is a pipe dream and until the world can efficiently dismantle and re cycle these batteries that’s what it will remain.
Will we just pass the buck and send them to China and India? Probably.
Saying all that if I had a windfall I’d love the new Mustang e by Ford.
I to would a have a EV, a small one would do me,
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
I to would a have a EV, a small one would do me,
I have difficulty in getting in and out of a “normal” car nowadays, I’m alright once I’m in but with my joints being a bit painful I find a high up vehicle so much easier.
 
Blind guess; the private sector will see it as a very attractive investment opportunity and will raise money through a mix of debt and equity funding. They’ll be able to borrow readily at low rates because there’s a near guaranteed long term revenue stream. And they’ll be using big data to drive the whole process.

Meanwhile, there’ll still be Luddites and doubting Thomases who select and combine tiny samples of micro data to try to prove that it can’t work.

I know which side I’m on.
What revenue stream?

That's you and I, by the way - paying increased household bills to support the financial engineering by banks and other intermediaries. Plus all those middle management wastrels making ppts for each other to explain why the infrastructure they promised isn't in place yet.

Baroness Dildo or the Atomic Kitten will get the job of making it happen. So yet more pissing of taxpayers money up against the wall, with little to show for it.

The technology is great, most of the early teething troubles have been overcome. I don't fault you for being an enthusiast, but there's a point at which your evident enthusiasm needs to take a long draft of harsh reality brew.

Henceforth, I shall refer to you as Dr Pangloss.
 

anglo

LE
Where did you find this interesting tidbit?

Shafts will bow and bearings will brinel (although short shafts with several bearings won't bow in any meaningful way) but this is not an instantaneous process.
It is when you have heavy weights hanging on a stood rotor, especially on the bearing
You've never worked in heavy industries have you?

It happens to all rotors on heavy machines, especially to machines with very heavy
blades spinning on the end of the input / output shaft, IE wind turbines.
The heaver the rotor the quicker it happens
consider the weight of the blades spinning on a wind turbine, if the turbine is not running all
that weight is just hung on the rotor shaft, thats why they keep the blades slowly turning
weights of wind turbines
Screenshot_2021-05-09 Table 4 Weight of commonly used offshore wind turbine .png



How much do wind turbines weigh?
In the GE 1.5-megawatt model, the nacelle alone weighs more than 56 tons, the blade assembly weighs more than 36 tons, and the tower itself weighs about 71 tons — a total weight of 164 tons. The corresponding weights for the Vestas V90 are 75, 40, and 152, total 267 tons; and for the Gamesa G87 72, 42, and 220, total 334 tons.
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
I paid a visit to my Model T owning friend yesterday, the charging unit is still U/S but he found the granny lead and plugged it into the workshop socket, that I had fitted for his pressure washer ( he forgot about that) I had a quick look and the charger was wet inside, opened it up dried it out and refitted it with some conduit into the wall and a drop of putty, jobs a good un
some chimp fitted it who did a 2 week installers course !!!
left it on the big charger while we took the tin lizzie out for a quick spin, and filled it up with go juice, its 3.5 litre so not the cheapest to run, but after 100 years I guess its not a problem
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
It is when you have heavy weights hanging on a stood rotor, especially on the bearing
You've never worked in heavy industries have you?

It happens to all rotors on heavy machines, especially to machines with very heavy
blades spinning on the end of the input / output shaft, IE wind turbines.
The heaver the rotor the quicker it happens
consider the weight of the blades spinning on a wind turbine, if the turbine is not running all
that weight is just hung on the rotor shaft, thats why they keep the blades slowly turning
weights of wind turbines
View attachment 571917


How much do wind turbines weigh?
In the GE 1.5-megawatt model, the nacelle alone weighs more than 56 tons, the blade assembly weighs more than 36 tons, and the tower itself weighs about 71 tons — a total weight of 164 tons. The corresponding weights for the Vestas V90 are 75, 40, and 152, total 267 tons; and for the Gamesa G87 72, 42, and 220, total 334 tons.
thats why watchmakers used to leave clocks at ten to two !
but I didnt know about the blades bending, its all a learning curve
 

anglo

LE
thats why watchmakers used to leave clocks at ten to two !
but I didnt know about the blades bending, its all a learning curve
Blade distortion and the weight of the non-spinning blades on the input shaft.
In the steel mills the big rotors were sat in a jig that turned the rotor every so often,
or the shafts would bend

Edit, if you sat the rotor on the floor you would end up with a flat spot on the rotor,
they were that heavy
 

bob231

War Hero
It is when you have heavy weights hanging on a stood rotor, especially on the bearing
You've never worked in heavy industries have you?

It happens to all rotors on heavy machines, especially to machines with very heavy
blades spinning on the end of the input / output shaft, IE wind turbines.
The heaver the rotor the quicker it happens
consider the weight of the blades spinning on a wind turbine, if the turbine is not running all
that weight is just hung on the rotor shaft, thats why they keep the blades slowly turning
No, I knew exactly what you meant. What slightly surprised me was the assertion ships constantly keep their shafts turning... "a quarter turn once a week" is nearer the mark.

I don't doubt that there isn't quite a parallel, given how much heavier blade assemblies are, but that doesn't strike me as needing constant rotation to keep the shaft straight and the bearings alive...
 

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