What would make you buy an electric car?

The biggest flaw in VtG is that UK National Grid have made it an integral part of their strategy for coping with electricity demand, and yet, apparently, the Nissan mentioned up-thread is the only EV with this capability.
No, it’s the first to go on sale. Tesla’s next upgrade includes V2G and VAG have announced that all their cars will be V2G capable by 2022. My bet, by 2025 all BEVs will be V2G capable.
 
No, it’s the first to go on sale. Tesla’s next upgrade includes V2G and VAG have announced that all their cars will be V2G capable by 2022. My bet, by 2025 all BEVs will be V2G capable.
So, everyone needs to wait until they are available before purchasing.

Some strategy.
 
No, it’s the first to go on sale. Tesla’s next upgrade includes V2G and VAG have announced that all their cars will be V2G capable by 2022. My bet, by 2025 all BEVs will be V2G capable.
Incidentally, do you know if Tesla plan to modify the clause in their warranty that forbids the vehicle battery being used as a power source?
 
having enough money would make me buy an electric car.
Well, I've been giving it some thought, and despite my scepticism that the infrastructure is going to be there, I have decided that I will buy an EV when all tomorrow's jam has been delivered. Here's my checklist.

1. When they are fitted with the 10 min charging time miracle battery
2. When all the service stations have sufficient charge points to charge the 10 min miracle battery
3. When (probably after I retire) my usage profile shrinks closer to that of the "average car driver" on which all the calculations are based.
4. When they are demonstrably cheaper to run - taking into account all the costs including purchase and depreciation.
5. When I can park it at an airport for 3 weeks without having to call a specialist recovery firm to recharge the battery (perhaps solved by the miracle battery in 1.).

Apparently it's all just around the corner.

I'm not bothered by all the auto-driving stuff. I have my wife to tell he how to drive.
 

anglo

LE
NISSAN want to take electricity OUT of your vehicle's battery, whilst it is stationary !!


Published by: WHATCAR? magazine, on 27 Apr 2010.

Promoted | What is vehicle-to-grid charging? A company car and fleet guide.

Nissan’s vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology can help you cut your driving and energy costs – whether you’re a company car driver charging at home, or a fleet manager charging at work . . .

Whether you’re a company car driver or a fleet manager, cutting the daily costs of driving is always near the top of your agenda.


Modern 100% electric vehicles such as the Nissan LEAF and the e-NV200 van offer a wealth of benefits that cut the cost of electric motoring compared to petrol and diesel – including zero road tax, zero congestion charges, reduced servicing costs, Government tax subsidies and purchase incentives.[1]

Nissan has now taken the cost-savings of electric driving a step further, with vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology that lets you be part of a wider energy-efficient ecosystem, while also helping you to cut your energy costs.

Put simply, V2G feeds surplus energy from your electric vehicle’s battery back into your building or the grid during periods of high demand, before charging your car back up again when rates are lower off-peak. This could lead to net cost savings, through reduced electric vehicle charging costs.

Currently, Nissan is the only mass-production manufacturer in the UK to provide this two-way charging feature on fully electric vehicles such as the 100% electric Nissan LEAF and e-NV200 van.[2]

Nissan has forecast that vehicle-to-grid charging could generate benefits of between £700 and £1,250 per vehicle per year. The technology could reduce up to 60 tonnes of CO2 per year per electric vehicle, while saving the economy up to £885m per year.[3]

Here is your guide to vehicle-to-grid technology, and how it can help you . . . .

How can vehicle-to-grid help company car drivers charging at home . . . ?

Vehicle-to-grid charging will be ideal for company car drivers who charge at home. Unlike a standard one-way home charger, V2G chargers use two-way technology that can both import and export charge to and from your vehicle.

Energy providers and programme operators – including Octopus Energy, OVO Energy and CrowdCharge (Drive Electric) – are working on various trial programmes to learn about the true financial and environmental benefits of V2G for Nissan LEAF drivers charging at home.

The idea is to keep V2G as easy as possible. Simply plug your Nissan LEAF in on your return home from work every day, and your energy provider will determine how much charge is left in the car, and the current demand on the grid whilst taking into consideration your own energy and charging needs.

If electricity demand and prices are high – say, in the evenings when people are returning home from work – power will be discharged from your vehicle’s battery to power homes and businesses or returned to the grid. Then, when demand is much lower (typically overnight, or when renewable sources are more in use), your provider will charge your electric car at cheaper rates.

So, what does this mean for individual company car drivers? Well, the current combination of electric vehicle and home charging grants, benefit-in-kind (BIK) tax incentives and reduced vehicle excise duty (VED) road tax and servicing costs already potentially saves you around £12,000 over three years compared to petrol and diesel variants.[5]

A V2G programme, with significant cost savings of selling energy back to the grid to cut your home energy and home charging bills, will increase the financial benefits of owning an electric vehicle for company car drivers – as well as helping to reduce our collective CO2 emissions and our impact on the planet.

How can vehicle-to-grid charging help fleet managers . . . ?

Electric vehicles, such as the 100% electric Nissan LEAF and e-NV200 van, are already a popular choice with fleet managers, thanks to their reduced servicing and maintenance costs versus petrol and diesel models. The additional benefits of reduced tax, zero-emissions while driving and government grants make electric vehicles the perfect way to cut costs and enhance your company’s eco credentials. Now, with vehicle-to-grid technology, the deal has only gotten sweeter.

Nissan is working closely with E.ON as part of a large-scale V2G commercialisation programme for Nissan electric vehicle fleets – co-funded by the Department for Business Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV) in partnership with Innovate UK. The project will look to demonstrate how storing and sharing electricity in fleet vehicles’ batteries can generate additional revenue for participating companies, as well as supporting the power grid.

A recently published white paper supports the case that V2G technology could unlock substantial overall savings of between £412-£883m over the next decade.[3] The study found that V2G-enabled fleets have the potential to cut overall power system CO2 emissions to as low as 243g of CO2/km, while the cost savings per 100%-electric fleet vehicle could be up to £12,000 per year.

There’s also a CO2 reduction of 60 tonnes per year for electricity system operation through more efficient provision of grid services.[3] That doesn’t just make better sense for businesses and the broader economy; it’s also better for the planet compared to petrol and diesel.

How can I start using vehicle-to-grid technology . . . ?

A number of organisations are active in vehicle-to-grid commercialisation programmes exclusively with Nissan – some of which have completed their recruitment phase. At time of publication, the E.ON programme is still open for recruitment for back-to-base company car fleets, while the Octopus Powerloop project is available for those looking to get a Nissan LEAF through personal contract hire.

Octopus Electric Vehicles is researching the domestic financial, environmental and government-influencing benefits of V2G technology. The project is currently being run in London, the South-East and East of England. Terms and conditions apply. Find out more: https://www.octopusev.com/powerloop
E.ON is offering vehicle-to-grid to back to base fleet users the equivalent of up to 10,000 electric vehicle driving miles per charger per year, carbon footprint reduction and up to 50% of the cost of V2G chargers, maintenance and installation covered. Terms and conditions apply visit: https://www.eonenergy.com/v2g.html

OVO Energy’s V2G programme with Kaluza is now closed for recruitment, but information on the activity and its findings can be found at: https://www.cenex.co.uk/projects-case-studies/sciurus/

The Electric Nation programme run by CrowdCharge is the only V2G project working with multiple energy suppliers to represent “the street of the future” and are also incorporating home solar generation to further harness the benefits of V2G. Recruitment is now closed but you can follow the project at: https://electricnation.org.uk/

[1] This is subject to individual circumstances. Nissan Motor (GB) Ltd does not offer tax advice and recommends that all drivers check the HMRC website for guidance or seek independent tax advice.

[2] Vehicle-to-grid (V2G) charging feature standard on all Nissan LEAF grades. Standard on e-NV200 van Acenta & Tekna grades, optional on Visia.

[3] For more information, visit https://www.eonenergy.com/.../The%20Drive%20Towards%20A...

[4] For more information visit: https://www.octopusev.com/powerloop

[5] Total savings on Nissan LEAF 40kWh N-Connecta vs typical UK best-selling hatchback with 1.5-litre turbo petrol engine (automatic transmission for 10,000 miles over three years = £515 road tax + £9,623 BIK + £2,067 fuel - £529 charger installation + £240 servicing = £11,916. Please seek independent tax advice in relation to BIK.

[6] Powerloop is funded by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV), with Innovate UK acting as delivery partner.

View attachment 570729

Sounds very good in theory, but something as to tell the car when to take charge, and
when to give back to the grid system, or the car doesn't know what action is required
So no car is fully VtG compliant until the charger is also compliant,
IE, it's no good unless the smart grid is in place and fully working, and that at the moment is a distant dream.
 

Legs

ADC
Book Reviewer
Sounds very good in theory, but something as to tell the car when to take charge, and
when to give back to the grid system, or the car doesn't know what action is required
So no car is fully VtG compliant until the charger is also compliant,
IE, it's no good unless the smart grid is in place and fully working, and that at the moment is a distant dream.
And what about that rare time you receive a call in the middle of the night saying that <insert relative of choice here> has been taken ill/been injured/needs urgent help?

You go out to your car that has been plugged in since you came home from work at 6pm, but the bloody battery is almost dead because Mrs Finch down the road has all her electric heating, hot water and electric blanket on so your car has provided the electricity...
 
And what about that rare time you receive a call in the middle of the night saying that <insert relative of choice here> has been taken ill/been injured/needs urgent help?

You go out to your car that has been plugged in since you came home from work at 6pm, but the bloody battery is almost dead because Mrs Finch down the road has all her electric heating, hot water and electric blanket on so your car has provided the electricity...
There will no doubt be an override, and all you need to do is press a button, and 4 hours later, your battery will be charged enough. This will give you time to calm down and collect your thoughts before driving. Seemples.
 

anglo

LE
And what about that rare time you receive a call in the middle of the night saying that <insert relative of choice here> has been taken ill/been injured/needs urgent help?

You go out to your car that has been plugged in since you came home from work at 6pm, but the bloody battery is almost dead because Mrs Finch down the road has all her electric heating, hot water and electric blanket on so your car has provided the electricity...
No problem, we will have this so-called Smart Grid that will take care of situations like that.
Well, that's what the experts are telling us

laff  grid.jpg
 

anglo

LE
It's certainly what the National Grid are saying.

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick,
The requirement is that the grid must be able to control all the chargers connected to the grid,
to switch them on and off in order to protect the grid.

Happens now,
A week of very cold weather, and a high pressure system with no wind, hence with the wind turbines
giving no power out, the grid is running near to overload.
Future,
Now add a few thousand/million* EVs all plugged in demanding power.

This condition is going to last a week.

Now what is this Smart grid going to do?, as it knows the grid is in danger of shutting down,

Logically, it will shut down all chargers during the day when maximum power is being used to keep people
warm. So. No power to give to the EV chargers
At night when power consumption drops as people go to bed, the system would have to work out how to give a charge to all the VE battery chargers, whilst no overloading the grid

Talking of the smart grid, all the chargers fitted up to now are not set up, so they can't be
controlled from a remote source at this time, they must all be modified before the Smart
grid can make any progress

* pick your own number
 

anglo

LE
Following on from post #1,492
An example of the grid with high pressure over the UK, notice we are already
drawing maximum power from France,
now add a large number of EV chargers the mix

L Click image to enlarge

Screenshot_2021-03-03 G B National Grid status.png

L
 
It's certainly what the National Grid are saying.

Notice that National Grid resort to the old “statistical” argument.
Statistics like
“Statistically the first car in a family does around 37 miles a day on average and any second car covers around 11 miles daily.”
don’t match real word usage.

Think about how the statistics are derived. Those statistical values mean nothing without understanding the structure of usage, which isn’t addressed.
 

Chef

LE
It's certainly what the National Grid are saying.

An advertising puff dispelling any fears about the new electric cars. (Coming soon ready or not). Written by the company who provide the electricity. To misquote Mandy Rice-Davies 'They would say that wouldn't they?'

Probably as accurate as smart meters saving electricity.
 

anglo

LE
An advertising puff dispelling any fears about the new electric cars. (Coming soon ready or not). Written by the company who provide the electricity. To misquote Mandy Rice-Davies 'They would say that wouldn't they?'

Probably as accurate as smart meters saving electricity.

6 myths about electric vehicles busted​

It's a load of rubbish

As an example

Enough capacity exists

With the first of these, the energy element, the most demand for electricity we’ve had in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, due to improved energy efficiency such as the installation of solar panels, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16 per cent. Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

Utter crap,

nuclear plants
EDF Energy owns and manages the seven currently operating reactor sites, with a combined capacity of about 9 GW. Six new plants are proposed to be built in the next few decades. All nuclear installations in the UK are overseen by the Office for Nuclear Regulation.
status

Gas stations
How many gas fired power stations are there in the UK?
32
There are currently 32 active gas fired combined cycle power plants operating in the United Kingdom, which have a total generating capacity of 28.0GW.

number of Wind turbines 2020
10,930 wind turbines
By the beginning of December 2020, wind power production consisted of 10,930 wind turbines with a total installed capacity of over 24.1 gigawatts: 13.7 gigawatts of onshore capacity and 10.4 gigawatts of offshore capacity. This placed the United Kingdom at this time as the world's sixth largest producer of wind power.

Max output I've seen is just over 13Gw

As the wind turbines only give around 13.5

To total power available is 50.5 GW that if everything is running, which neve happens

status see above
Power station daily status
 
We'll find out in the next 20 years if we can manage to build the capacity. Who knows, by then they may even be phasing us out driving them.
 
Incidentally, do you know if Tesla plan to modify the clause in their warranty that forbids the vehicle battery being used as a power source?
I think the issue with current Tesla’s is that the vehicles charger architecture isn’t designed for bi-directional use.

Musk announced last year that all future Telsas will be V2G capable. New Model 3s have 2-way charging architecture. Presumably the warranty covers what they sell!
 

Joshua Slocum

LE
Book Reviewer
An old friend of mine owns a Nissan leaf, he and his wife use it for shopping and running around, he walks to work as his workshop is about a mile away
he also owns a Tin Lizzie, owned it for 45 years
last week I saw it parked in Sainsburys, walked over to chat, are you giving the old girl a run to keep her in good order ?
No the bloody box thing that charges the Leaf has blown the fuses in the house and the battery is flat !!!!
although he does say that the Leaf is a fantastic car for its designed use
but at 3.5 litres and wooden wheels a tin lizzie can be hard in traffic
on the upside, you dont need to worry about it getting nicked, nobody under 80 could work out how to start it and drive it
 
Following on from post #1,492
An example of the grid with high pressure over the UK, notice we are already
drawing maximum power from France,
now add a large number of EV chargers the mix

L Click image to enlarge

View attachment 571105
I suspect you’d have to work very hard to find another snapshot that matches that.

The UKs weather is not driven by highs; it’s driven by North Atlantic lows, which generally flow across the Atlantic in a constant train.

The main exception to this prevailing weather pattern occurs in summer, when the Azores High builds and Atlantic low pressure systems get pushed further North. The UK still experiences a pressure gradient and therefore winds; it is only at the centre of the high (or low) that there is no gradient.

On the few occasions in summer where high pressure builds right over the UK so there is no pressure gradient, temperatures will be high and there will be no gradient wind. There will invariably be sea breezes in the afternoon and land breezes in the evening.

The occasions when high pressure builds over the UK in winter are very rare and transient. They don’t last long because the prevailing train of Atlantic lows will rapidly overcome them.

I don’t think this proves much.
 

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