What would make you buy an electric car?

Tyk

LE
At which point businesses will incentivise use of private vehicles wherever possible. Non starter apart from trucks.

Far the simplest way to tax (I don't give a stuff about the semantics with the word duty, the reality is it's a tax) driving is on fuel, no matter what the fuel type is. There's also a built in incentive towards efficiency which is going to be no less a factor than it is with fossil fuels. That incentive is lost if you just tax on a per mile basis, even if you could reliably do it.
 
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Then there's this,

It’s not a model for collecting duty on energy supplies.

The UK Government will automatically get 5% on all EV Charging, as there is 5% VAT
on electricity now
Fine. But VAT on vehicle fuel is 20%. Plus theirs duty to charge. How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car? That smart meter is getting very complex.....
 

Tyk

LE
Fine. But VAT on vehicle fuel is 20%. Plus theirs duty to charge. How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car? That smart meter is getting very complex.....

Build metering on the charge device, or add a meter to the feed to the wall charger. Make it required by law and avoidance carries tax evasion penalties.
 
At which point businesses will incentivise use of private vehicles wherever possible. Non starter apart from trucks.

Far the simplest way to tax (I don't give a stuff about the semantics with the word duty, the reality is it's a tax) driving is on fuel, no matter what the fuel type is. There's also a built in incentive towards efficiency which is going to be no less a factor than it is with fossil fuels.
The tax system already incentivises the business use of private vehicles.

I’m not at all convinced by the argument that the government will need to replace fuel duty at all. Here’s a study done for the Australian government comparing the costs and benefits of going EV. The conclusion is that EVs will provide a net benefit to government without the need to tax the fuel. There’s another similar study by Berkley looking at California. I can’t find one for the UK.

The key driver here is that BEVs will mostly run on renewables. Thus the vast cashflows out of developed economies to petro economies cease. Money spent on electricity stays in the domestic economy and gets reinvested.

I don’t think the government will be rushing to charge EV fuel. It will want to stimulate EV adoption, not discourage it.
 

Tyk

LE
The Australian population is some 25 million, the real population of the UK is at least three times that. The tax take from motoring in the UK is not even slightly comparable to that in Australia.
As to renewables again they're not comparable, Aus properties tend to be on much larger plots than the UK, solar roofing in Aus makes sense, not so in the UK and a fair bit of the UK housing stock is at least a century old, plenty of it older than Australia itself. Home renewables in the UK are far less viable than that in Aus.
The UK imports electricity on occasion via the France link so the domestic economy argument is negated, plus there are several big players in the UK electricity market that aren't UK owned so again that argument has holes.

Once the uptake of EV's is big enough then there's no way a UK government will avoid taxing EV use, as previously argued that's likely to be via fuel. Doubly so when EV uptake is really widespread.
 
The Australian population is some 25 million, the real population of the UK is at least three times that. The tax take from motoring in the UK is not even slightly comparable to that in Australia.
As to renewables again they're not comparable, Aus properties tend to be on much larger plots than the UK, solar roofing in Aus makes sense, not so in the UK and a fair bit of the UK housing stock is at least a century old, plenty of it older than Australia itself. Home renewables in the UK are far less viable than that in Aus.
The UK imports electricity on occasion via the France link so the domestic economy argument is negated, plus there are several big players in the UK electricity market that aren't UK owned so again that argument has holes.

Once the uptake of EV's is big enough then there's no way a UK government will avoid taxing EV use, as previously argued that's likely to be via fuel. Doubly so when EV uptake is really widespread.
Actually, the Australian and UK tax takes on fuel duty as a percentage of total tax take are remarkably similar. Both countries are seeing a long term decline in fuel duty revenue as vehicles become more efficient and people drive less.

What is different is the amount of renewable energy generated in Australia; its pathetically low. In the UK, it’s world leading. By 2030, the UK will be able to power the entire housing stock with renewables. In Aus, there is a very low uptake of domestic renewables because the government fucked up the incentives.

It might pay to read and understand the E&Y report instead of dismissing it out of hand. But the time then UKs BEV fleet makes up half the total vehicle fleet (2045 ish) it will almost entirely be powered by renewables.

IMHO, we’ll see fuel duty on hydrocarbons steadily increased as we go past 2030 to encourage BEV uptake. We won’t see taxation of BEV power until at least 2045.

I can’t see any logic in building a system to tax personal vehicle usage when the sums involved are relative peanuts. It makes no sense to build a system that will collect no more than £200 per year from the average car owner.
 
This is an informative & honest video.

With the heating thing I saw a hint before Christmas. They were saying that using just the heater and heating the whole car was inefficient. Their suggestion is to use the heated seats and steering wheel and keep the car heater set at 20c. This is what I’m doing in winter and it’s been fine so far. Coldest I have been was -15c outside.

I do pre heat though as I like getting into a warm car and the battery is much happier (better consumption from the off and full regen).
 
With the heating thing I saw a hint before Christmas. They were saying that using just the heater and heating the whole car was inefficient. Their suggestion is to use the heated seats and steering wheel and keep the car heater set at 20c. This is what I’m doing in winter and it’s been fine so far. Coldest I have been was -15c outside.

I do pre heat though as I like getting into a warm car and the battery is much happier (better consumption from the off and full regen).
I think the latest Tesla’s are moving away from resistance heating to air source heat pumps. Not sure how that will work at -15!
 

anglo

LE
Fine. But VAT on vehicle fuel is 20%. Plus theirs duty to charge. How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car? That smart meter is getting very complex.....
How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car?

Simple really, As vehicle fuel taxes decrease, Vat will increase on all units of electricity used,
including car charging, to think otherwise is being naive.
 
How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car?

Simple really, As vehicle fuel taxes decrease, Vat will increase on all units of electricity used,
including car charging, to think otherwise is being naive.
So a perfect incentive to install home renewables?
 
This is an informative & honest video.

An interesting post, particularly the range calculations - in Winter that's a real problem. To compare - just before Covid set in I had to drive up to help my mum every 3-4 weeks for a long weekend. That's 150 miles there, 150 miles back and about 150 miles driving around doing stuff - total about 450 miles.

In my current car a full tank gets me there, drive around, drive home with plenty left that I don't need to fill up for the rest of the week for my usual work stuff.

In the Tesla in winter? 60% "usable" range, reduced to half because of heating: that's about 80 miles between charges - so I'd have to recharge on the way up, when I got there, twice during the weekend, and on the way back down and then recharge before I went to work the next day.

That's recharging 6 times. In summer it would still be 3.
 

Chef

LE
How do you differentiate between electricity used in the home and electricity used to charge the car?

Simple really, As vehicle fuel taxes decrease, Vat will increase on all units of electricity used,
including car charging, to think otherwise is being naive.
My first thought would be to tax the vehicles. But your idea is much simpler and more lucrative. As for @bobthebuilder's assertion that it would get more houses to get renewables: If your leccy bill goes up by £500 a year, which I doubt, your looking at 5 grand extra over a ten year period. If a set of panels is about £5,000 then they'll need to supply £500+ of electricity to cover either the £5,000 up front for the panels and even more if you've taken a loan out to pay for the panels.

If your in a tower block, forget it, if the extra is £100-150 a year what's the point?

Most people will probably suck it up as the cheapest option.
 

tgo

War Hero
Still cheap, bet you put more than £500/yr in petrol/Derv in your vehicle...

I'd spend that in 10 fill ups, so like 3 months.
 

anglo

LE
My first thought would be to tax the vehicles. But your idea is much simpler and more lucrative. As for @bobthebuilder's assertion that it would get more houses to get renewables: If your leccy bill goes up by £500 a year, which I doubt, your looking at 5 grand extra over a ten year period. If a set of panels is about £5,000 then they'll need to supply £500+ of electricity to cover either the £5,000 up front for the panels and even more if you've taken a loan out to pay for the panels.

If your in a tower block, forget it, if the extra is £100-150 a year what's the point?

Most people will probably suck it up as the cheapest option.
If VAT is increased on electricity the whole country pays, if pay per mile is introduced
only each car pays, so, more money to be had going the VAT way,
that said, knowing the Governments love of tax, they we probably use both
VAT and mileage, either way, tax is going to be very high to pay off the national debt
and the push to go "green"
 
Published by: WHATCAR? magazine, on 17 February 2021.

The true cost of owning an electric car.

Electric cars are often pricier to buy than traditional alternatives, but they’re cheaper to run, right? Well, we've looked at how some of the best stack up in terms of costs . . . .

The UK is one of of Europe’s biggest markets for electric vehicles (EVs), behind Norway and Germany. There are nearly 200,000 full EVs on British roads today and close to 400,000 plug-in hybrids (PHEVs).


Although the coronavirus pandemic took its toll on new car sales last year, it encouraged more people to go electric. Sales of EVs in 2020 were up by 186% compared with the previous year, according to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), with 108,205 registered. PHEV sales rose by 91% on the previous year, and together these two power types accounted for nearly 10% of new car registrations for the first time; that’s three times more than in 2019.

That’s all very encouraging, but EV buyers could end up paying extra to go green. Many of those cars are more expensive to buy than their petrol and diesel-engined counterparts, and some cost more to insure and maintain. On top of that, if you can’t recharge your car cheaply at home you could end up paying more to run it than you would a petrol car.

To see how they compare with other types of cars in terms of costs, we’ve chosen some of our favourite EVs: the Volkswagen ID.3 Pro Performance Life (winner of the small electric car category at the 2021 What Car? Awards), the Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus (winner of the large EV category), the BMW iX3 (our top electric SUV), the Kia E-Niro Long Range (best small EV for long journeys) and the Audi E-tron (the highest-rated large EV for comfort).

Buying . . .

Even after you’ve deducted the Government’s £3000 grant for EVs that cost less than £50,000, many are pricier than petrol or diesel alternatives. Volkswagen's ID.3, for example, costs around 16% more than a comparable Golf, while Kia’s E-Niro will set you back just over 20% more than a Niro Hybrid. However, the Tesla Model 3 is 10% cheaper than the equivalent BMW 330e PHEV and around the same as a 320d, while Audi’s E-tron represents a saving of nearly 10% over a comparable Q7.
Insurance . . . .

At the top end of the market, some EVs can be a lot more expensive to insure than their petrol and diesel rivals. The priciest of our examples to insure is the Model 3, which costs a whopping 45% more than a comparable 3 Series. The E-tron also costs marginally more than a comparable Audi Q7. However, at the more affordable end of the market, there’s little difference between the ID.3 and Golf, or the E-Niro and other Niro models.

Doug Woodley, technical assurance manager at Thatcham Research, which helps to create insurance group ratings, says: “Many EVs are more powerful than their petrol and diesel equivalents and present a higher insurance risk based on relative performance alone. In addition, EVs are still broadly more expensive to buy than the equivalent conventional car.

“The construction of EVs often differs from that of more traditional cars, too. Many utilise cutting-edge materials and manufacturing techniques, which tend to make them more expensive to repair following an accident.

“Vehicle manufacturers are working to bring down the cost of EV ownership, and as the take-up of EVs grows, we would expect the cost of accident repairs to fall. So we expect the premium differential between EVs and conventionally powered vehicles to narrow in the months and years ahead.”
Servicing . . . .

EV aficionados often brag about how cheap their cars are to service, but when you take into account the cost of other maintenance items, such as tyres, this isn’t the case with all models according to CAP HPI, which specialises in car valuations and background checks.

Buyers of the ID.3 can expect to shell out £778 in service and maintenance costs over three years, says CAP HPI. That’s 36% more than for a Golf 2.0 TDI Life and 42% more than for a 1.5 petrol Golf.

“The difference between the Golf and ID.3 is mostly down to tyre size,” explains Steve Chambers, senior service, maintenance and repair editor at CAP HPI. “The ID.3 has a larger and rarer tyre size than the Golf, which has one of the most common tyre fitments. Electric vehicles also have a slightly higher historic tyre wear profile based on usage.

“Vehicles used around town tend to wear out tyres and brakes more quickly than those spending more time on motorways. However, EVs tend not to wear their brakes as much as other cars because of the regenerative energy recuperation (which puts otherwise wasted energy back into the battery under deceleration) and the retardation this provides. That said, the tyres of any urban-driven car will still have to endure lots of acceleration and will most likely encounter a greater number of potholes per travelled mile.”

However, in all three of our other comparisons, the EVs proved cheaper to maintain. The Model 3 costs 12% less than the 330e and 17% less than the 320i. In fact, the 330e is the most expensive of all, costing 27% more than the 320i over three years.

“The 330e is more than 300kg heavier [than other 3 Series models] and has battery power available, which gives a power boost. The view here is that with the extra available power and weight, the average wear on tyres will be slightly greater than that of the lighter, lower- powered variant,” says Chambers.
Resale values . . . .

When EVs were an unknown entity among the majority of used car buyers some years ago, second-hand values were far lower than their conventionally powered counterparts. We heard horror stories from owners of cars that had retained as little as 17% of their original value after three years.

However, the predicted values of EVs are now far more comparable with those of other cars, and when compared with increasingly unpopular diesels in some classes, they can be markedly better.

Tesla’s tight grip on the market for its used cars in the UK has helped to bolster values. According to CAP HPI, a Model 3 will retain 56% of its original price after three years and 30,000 miles, while owners of comparable 3 Series models can expect to get back only 43-45% of their car’s list price.

Highlighting the demise of diesel engines in smaller car classes, the Golf 2.0 TDI is predicted to shed 8% more of its value after three years than the petrol Golf and the ID.3. And high demand and a long waiting list for the E-Niro mean it should hang on to marginally more of its value than other Niros.

However, the E-tron is predicted to shed value slightly faster than the AudiQ7, even though it costs marginally less when new. Chris Plumb, senior valuations editor at CAP HPI, says that this reflects a dip in average EV values in the wider used car market in the past year.

He predicts that EV values are likely to continue to be dented by a number of factors. “The high new-cost premium that manufacturers put on EVs is not always reflected by consumers in the used market, making them look expensive through the first and second phases of their lifecycle,” he says. “While there is a healthy level of used retail demand, supply [of many models] has increased over the past 12 months, impacting what people are willing to pay for them. In addition, strong consumer offers on new cars has put additional pressure on used values” . . . . .

[Follow link for another THREE pages . . .].

volkswagen_id.3_charging.jpg


 
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Lots of talk about electric, but what's the current state of play for Hydrogen?

I suspect Electric is the only game in town at current due to the availability of electrical support infrastructure. From the tiny amount I know about it Hydrogen seems to fit the requirements for this country much better than Electric. The problem is there's no infrastructure, so no one is making cars for it.

As this is going to set our transport/infrastructure arrangements for centuries to come surely it makes sense for the Government to implement the requirements for the better system?
For example, if Hydrogen is better (and it seems it will avoid many of the problems of EV's) a law mandating at least one working hydrogen pump in each county per large fuel station chain.
That would open the market to Hydrogen infrastructure. Without it, there's a very real possibility we could be forced into using EV's with all their problems causing serious damage to the economy.

I was curious, so I looked it up, apparently there's a total of 12 hydrogen fuel stations in the UK. This isn't really enough for a critical mass.
 
It won't be cars by then if industry gets its way. There is massive (and I mean billions of pounds) of investment by some very major companies plus venture capitalists for start up companies on air taxis. Think a big drone that can carry anywhere between 2 - 10 people.
Many governments (including UK) are already working on regulations and safety requirements for these things. We're not anywhere near getting them there yet but its coming.
Not sure where one would land to pick me up. Looking out of the front window, there's a telegraph pole over the road that has a spider's web of wires that would make it impossible for one to land - and that's assuming it could set down between the parked cars on some stretches of our road. As for landing in the back garden, well it would have to be a bloody small vehicle to manage that.

Whereas the local taxi firm pulls up outside the front door within 10 minutes of phoning them on the rare occasions we use taxis.
 
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