What would make you buy an electric car?

Chef

LE
Hiring is getting tougher all the time. Probably given time, giving employees free charging at work will become another carrot.

@NSP is the car park for a business or an apartment complex. Here a lot of the big office blocks have had companies come in and supply the hardware and supply etc and it’s pay by account or card. I’m pretty sure the landlord gets something for that too..
It's a sensible idea and one that would be welcomed by the UK government:

A taxable perk, I should imagine it would, at best, negate the perk and may actually cost more than you saved.

Once petrol has been lost as a reliable source of tax revenue the next registered asset to take up the slack will be the EV.
 

TotalBanker

Old-Salt
It's a block of flats not a business. There's no visitor parking so visitors can fornicate themselves or ask the person they're visiting nicely if they can ponce off of their parking space charger point. I am keen to avoid charger supplies coming off of the domestic meters because of charging rate, aggro' getting the cabling in, and two of us have a garage remote from the building and with no supply at present. I'd also like to meter charging electrons separately from the electrons coursing through my lights, heaters, immersion, etc. so I can keep a tab on how much it costs to "fill the tank."

Ideally, I'd like a fast charger on each bay and each garage that are separately metered or work on an account-and-PIN/chip card system simply for ease when the three buy-to-lets change out their tenant. Want Sky? Arrange a subscription. Want broadband? Sign up with an ISP. Want to use the car charger? Open an account. If it can be done so the management company is making a little profit on-selling the electrons then so much the better - will allow me to lower the service charge bills and gain further adoration from my residents! Schlurp.
Hi, who have you approached on this? Im interested as im a director on my residents association. We have a property management company who i suspect will try to push us down the route you suggested, they manage and bill the process and make a profit. I drive, the other 2 directors dont so theyre NFI.
The flats have off street parking in our own car park with garages (unfortunately 70s built and few of the cars the flt owners drive fit in) and ive bene on at the property management company for something similar to what you mentioned - a charging port per parking space (spaces arent marked, theyre first come first served) and a charger per garage, for the parts where people have space to park in front of garage.
So far property maintenance people havent been interested, but with petrol and diesel cars being chinned off by ajor car makers within 10 years , leccy cars are only going to be more prevalent
 
It's a sensible idea and one that would be welcomed by the UK government:

A taxable perk, I should imagine it would, at best, negate the perk and may actually cost more than you saved.

Once petrol has been lost as a reliable source of tax revenue the next registered asset to take up the slack will be the EV.
I very much doubt the tax will ever cost more than the perk. It doesn’t now here with company vehicles.
 
You are charged tax on the mains supply to your home anyway. With an EV the consumption will go up so you will pay more tax. With charging away from home it will all be pay as you go (some hotels may give it complimentary still) and that’s easy for taxes to be added and reclaimed from the provider.
 

NSP

LE
Hi, who have you approached on this? Im interested as im a director on my residents association. We have a property management company who i suspect will try to push us down the route you suggested, they manage and bill the process and make a profit. I drive, the other 2 directors dont so theyre NFI.
The flats have off street parking in our own car park with garages (unfortunately 70s built and few of the cars the flt owners drive fit in) and ive bene on at the property management company for something similar to what you mentioned - a charging port per parking space (spaces arent marked, theyre first come first served) and a charger per garage, for the parts where people have space to park in front of garage.
So far property maintenance people havent been interested, but with petrol and diesel cars being chinned off by ajor car makers within 10 years , leccy cars are only going to be more prevalent
You need to change your property manager, then - they work for you in exchange for a fee, not the other way around. I e-mail ours with, "Can you get someone to quote for X," or, "Can you get our tame handyman to come over and fix Y 'cos it's knackered, please," and off he toddles.

I've not done anything other than a bit of Googling so I can put a reasonably coherent spec together. The next step will then be to tell our building manager to find me an appropriately-qualified surveyor or engineer to come round and do some measuring and appraisal stuff to give us a report on what's doable, best options on kit and fee-charging methodology, what permits we'd need and from whom, likely cost to install, any government grants available - that sort of thing. I can then present a costed case to the management co. members at our AGM and hopefully get a vote to proceed raising the funds over s few years through the service charge and then get the work done.

That gives me an idea: think I'll drop Western Power Distribution an e-mail on Monday.

Either way, if we had a system that allowed us to buy the electrons for the chargers and then sell them on to residents at a small profit that would be the RMCs money, not the building managers!

If you are in Somerset/Bristol/N. Devon area I can recommend our building manager if you want to bin off your current one, as he sounds a bit crap.
 

Tyk

LE
A taxation model that taxes electricity charges is a change in model anyway. Fuel duty isn’t paid at the point of sale; it’s paid in bulk by the producer or importer. VAT is charged in the forecourt’s liable turnover, not on the fuel itself. You are proposing a levy on the metered charge; it’s new and hasn’t been done before.

Meanwhile cars will be 5G connected; most electric cars are today. They accept software modifications over the mobile network and their usage is available to manufactures. Pay as you go payment apps are also mature.

My bet is we’ll see road charging.

Not really, the change to a levy on electricity for charging would be simple to institute, not a gigantic change to the current system.

For public chargers the suppliers are already buying electricity with bulk deals, trivial to apply a tax to that charge that's then passed on to the customer.
For home chargers a meter either on the charger or supply wouldn't be hard to legislate for and levy on that metered usage.

5G is a brilliant idea! You can't get reliable 4G in a fair bit of the UK outside of cities and 5G is lagging well behind that at the moment, I live in a fairly big town and there's no 5G outside of the town centre. The UK has a hell of a lot of mobile coverage, but large lumps of the countryside have very little. Far worse in many other countries.
Not forgetting that should it ever be financially advantageous for people to fiddle with the EV phone home function (beyond the desire for privacy which isn't trivial) then you can bet a whole store of boots that there will be software mods available on the net for every car type very rapidly, ones that can be applied and undone by plugging in a thumb drive to a USB port.

Fuel taxation is familiar and accepted in the UK, road pricing isn't, in fact it's widely opposed.

For that matter for those of us that drive on the continent too refuelling attracts their taxation rate. If you imagine that the whole of the EU and the UK will agree a taxation scheme via 5G then you're sadly deluded.
 
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anglo

LE
A taxation model that taxes electricity charges is a change in model anyway. Fuel duty isn’t paid at the point of sale; it’s paid in bulk by the producer or importer. VAT is charged in the forecourt’s liable turnover, not on the fuel itself. You are proposing a levy on the metered charge; it’s new and hasn’t been done before.

Meanwhile cars will be 5G connected; most electric cars are today. They accept software modifications over the mobile network and their usage is available to manufactures. Pay as you go payment apps are also mature.

My bet is we’ll see road charging.
VAT is charged in the forecourt’s liable turnover, not on the fuel itself.

Not in the UK

tax006.jpg
 

Chef

LE
I very much doubt the tax will ever cost more than the perk. It doesn’t now here with company vehicles.
Back in the late 60s early 70s, tax rates on some investments meant that it was theoretically possible to be taxed at 100%+ in some circumstances, hence high earners legging it to friendlier tax regimes.

Once you've paid tax on the actual parking space, benefits in kind, and the enhanced nature of a space fitted for recharging, it's not too much of a jump to find that driving a company EV into work and charging it at work becomes less tax efficient than buying one's own EV or eschewing the company parking space and taking one's chances with public parking.

It might not end up that way but HS2 has got to be paid for somehow.
 

anglo

LE
Back in the late 60s early 70s, tax rates on some investments meant that it was theoretically possible to be taxed at 100%+ in some circumstances, hence high earners legging it to friendlier tax regimes.

Once you've paid tax on the actual parking space, benefits in kind, and the enhanced nature of a space fitted for recharging, it's not too much of a jump to find that driving a company EV into work and charging it at work becomes less tax efficient than buying one's own EV or eschewing the company parking space and taking one's chances with public parking.

It might not end up that way but HS2 and the national debt has got to be paid for somehow.
Fixed
 
VAT is charged in the forecourt’s liable turnover, not on the fuel itself.

Not in the UK

View attachment 550925
Yes, but HMRC only charges VAT on the value added.

The business adds VAT at the point of sale to every good or service it sells that is liable for VAT (Output VAT). It also pays VAT on the goods and services it buys (Input VAT). It submits a quarterly return to HMRC and pays VAT on Output VAT - Input VAT, ie on it VAT turnover.

It’s not a model for collecting duty on energy supplies.
 
Not really, the change to a levy on electricity for charging would be simple to institute, not a gigantic change to the current system.

For public chargers the suppliers are already buying electricity with bulk deals, trivial to apply a tax to that charge that's then passed on to the customer.
For home chargers a meter either on the charger or supply wouldn't be hard to legislate for and levy on that metered usage.

5G is a brilliant idea! You can't get reliable 4G in a fair bit of the UK outside of cities and 5G is lagging well behind that at the moment, I live in a fairly big town and there's no 5G outside of the town centre. The UK has a hell of a lot of mobile coverage, but large lumps of the countryside have very little. Far worse in many other countries.
Not forgetting that should it ever be financially advantageous for people to fiddle with the EV phone home function (beyond the desire for privacy which isn't trivial) then you can bet a whole store of boots that there will be software mods available on the net for every car type very rapidly, ones that can be applied and undone by plugging in a thumb drive to a USB port.

Fuel taxation is familiar and accepted in the UK, road pricing isn't, in fact it's widely opposed.

For that matter for those of us that drive on the continent too refuelling attracts their taxation rate. If you imagine that the whole of the EU and the UK will agree a taxation scheme via 5G then you're sadly deluded.
GridServe do not buy their energy at all. How do you charge them in bulk?

I don’t think it is as simple as you think. As and example, there’s no simple way of differentiating between power sources. Plug the car in to a 13 amp socket (a method that would work most of the time for most drivers) and the power is supplied from the domestic meter. Plug the car in somewhere that is entirely energy self-sufficient and there’s nothing to tax

An alternative solution than either meter charging or road charging might be to let the car report how much net power it has used. Again, this is data that the car records and can easily send.

The Government is said to be considering all options. They’re not alone; every government has the same challenge. And many have similar challenges with road pricing.
 
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anglo

LE
Yes, but HMRC only charges VAT on the value added.

The business adds VAT at the point of sale to every good or service it sells that is liable for VAT (Output VAT). It also pays VAT on the goods and services it buys (Input VAT). It submits a quarterly return to HMRC and pays VAT on Output VAT - Input VAT, ie on it VAT turnover.

It’s not a model for collecting duty on energy supplies.
not on the fuel itself. You said,
I pay vat on the fuel, that VAT is given to the Government, thus VAT is charged on fuel,
the rest of your post is just flannel,
 
not on the fuel itself. You said,
I pay vat on the fuel, that VAT is given to the Government, thus VAT is charged on fuel,
the rest of your post is just flannel,
No. I could have been clearer, but the point I was trying to make is that the government does not collect VAT at the pump. It collects it on the VAT turnover of the business.
 
GridServe do not buy their energy at all. How do you charge them in bulk?

I don’t think it is as simple as you think. As and example, there’s no simple way of differentiating between power sources. Plug the car in to a 13 amp socket (a method that would work most of the time for most drivers) and the power is supplied from the domestic meter. Plug the car in somewhere that is entirely energy self-sufficient and there’s nothing to tax

An alternative solution than either meter charging or road charging might be to let the car report how much net power it has used. Again, this is data that the car records and can easily send.

The Government is said to be considering all options. They’re not alone; every government has the same challenge. And many have similar challenges with road pricing.
Isn’t that over complicating it a bit the charger is really just another fuel pump albeit slower and not generally at a service station. If it charges for what it puts in then surely a simple matter to put tax on that and have the provider submit the HST or whatever as normal.

The other thing is at home where you are charged tax on usage anyway.
 

anglo

LE
No. I could have been clearer, but the point I was trying to make is that the government does not collect VAT at the pump. It collects it on the VAT turnover of the business.
Then there's this,

It’s not a model for collecting duty on energy supplies.

The UK Government will automatically get 5% on all EV Charging, as there is 5% VAT
on electricity now
 

Tyk

LE
GridServe do not buy their energy at all. How do you charge them in bulk?
Meter their output via chargers and tax it. Trivial.
I don’t think it is as simple as you think. As and example, there’s no simple way of differentiating between power sources. Plug the car in to a 13 amp socket (a method that would work most of the time for most drivers) and the power is supplied from the domestic meter.
Problematic, but the charger having a meter can solve that.

Plug the car in somewhere that is entirely energy self-sufficient and there’s nothing to tax
If they have charge stations, same as GridServe example. Basically make all public/company chargers metered and taxed.

An alternative solution than either meter charging or road charging might be to let the car report how much net power it has used. Again, this is data that the car records and can easily send.
Vulnerable to tinkering, like the old tricks of buggering with odometers.
The Government is said to be considering all options. They’re not alone; every government has the same challenge. And many have similar challenges with road pricing.
Of course they're considering all options, in any project I do all options are considered, even the ones that are the far end of ludicrous, but considering all options does not mean all options are considered equally.
 

Tyk

LE
I bet that’s exactly how the superchargers work with tax

Safe bet that they will be before long and there's zero doubt to me they will be as they become more popular.

There is no way in hell that any government which currently taxes hydrocarbon fuel will bypass that tax take as EV's become more popular, the rational and simple way to replace that tax is on charging.
 
Safe bet that they will be before long and there's zero doubt to me they will be as they become more popular.

There is no way in hell that any government which currently taxes hydrocarbon fuel will bypass that tax take as EV's become more popular, the rational and simple way to replace that tax is on charging.
That’s exactly what happens here Tesla has your card on file and when you get charged they just take the cash and send you the email receipt. I’m still on free supercharging but that will come.
 
Safe bet that they will be before long and there's zero doubt to me they will be as they become more popular.

There is no way in hell that any government which currently taxes hydrocarbon fuel will bypass that tax take as EV's become more popular, the rational and simple way to replace that tax is on charging.
Actually, one of the options the government is said to be analysing is ceasing taxing fuel.

There is some logic. Fuel duty is politically very difficult to increase. It’s a fixed levy (hence a duty, not a tax) and hasn’t been inflated for nearly a decade. The last government to try to maintain a link to inflation saw mobile road blocks in protest and backed away.

Meanwhile average mileage by consumers has dropped significantly down to <7500 a year and car fuel economy has increased. The “average motorist” pays around £100 a year in fuel duty (7500 miles in a car averaging 35mpg is 215 gallons of fuel. Duty at 55p : gallon gives £117, at 40mpg it’s £103).

Which begs the question; is it worth rolling out any new system to replace fuel duty on personal motoring.

The vast majority of the fuel duty take comes from commercial vehicles (including cars used for business). Most of that mileage is done on motorways.

I can see a clear political case for eliminating fuel tax the private motorist (ie voters) and charging a road usage fee for businesses (who don’t vote).
 

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