What would make you buy an electric car?

[Who_Dat]

The French government says that charging points in the country have passed the one million milestone.

However, the report also says this...

"A charging "point" differs from a "charging station", which can accommodate several points. More than half are now in private homes, 43% in companies, and the rest (6%) is accessible to the public on the road, car parks, etc. They are also distributed unevenly in France, depending on the population and the equipment policies of the departments."

 

[MrBane]

The French government says that charging points in the country have passed the one million milestone.

However, the report also says this...

"A charging "point" differs from a "charging station", which can accommodate several points. More than half are now in private homes, 43% in companies, and the rest (6%) is accessible to the public on the road, car parks, etc. They are also distributed unevenly in France, depending on the population and the equipment policies of the departments."

That's some pokery of the figures. It's almost like saying there are 27 million charging points in the UK.

27 million being the approx numbers of homes, and they all have a plug socket!

 

[Northern_Biff]

OK I agree with your point that HFCs still need work and development, but by the same token so does battery technology.

Batteries use far more precious earth metals sourced from dubious practices that the current requirement for HFCs (although i will give you that Platinum has dubious sources itself).

Should the current requirement for HFCs change then we would have to look at the sourcing methods for it. The sourcing methods for cobalt and lithium in batteries is a pandoras box that has long been opened.

I would rather we invested in HFCs than Batteries though. That includes the production efficiency and storage as well as the production and development of HFCs as it is not a finite resource for the fuel.

As I said IMHO batteries are an evolutionary dead end but they are a step change to the next generation of EVs where a lot of the issues that stop me from buying an EV will be solved.

At that point I will happily migrate to EVs but for now the inconvenience of the infrastructure and the limited usefulness of the EV (Towing and my personal usage model) is just too much for me to accept.

The last 15 years of my working life were spent on the payroll of one of the planets largest International Oil Corporations, with interests in oil, gas and LNG energy exploitation and production. The development of gas to liquids capabilities was also an eye opener. Having seen vast city sized projects conceived and erected in the middle of nowhere, I am more than confident that the same companies could easily switch from handling volatile and extremely dangerous hydrocarbons to HFC production and distribution should the demand be there.
(I secretly think they are hedging their bets, waiting for the West to see what a failure EVs are, then ride in on a white horse saving the world so that we're all forced to switch to their HFCs.)

 

[Drazyl]

Running your car on electricity is still cheaper than petrol/diesel.

For now.

 

[Pagan-Image]

The last 15 years of my working life were spent on the payroll of one of the planets largest International Oil Corporations, with interests in oil, gas and LNG energy exploitation and production. The development of gas to liquids capabilities was also an eye opener. Having seen vast city sized projects conceived and erected in the middle of nowhere, I am more than confident that the same companies could easily switch from handling volatile and extremely dangerous hydrocarbons to HFC production and distribution should the demand be there.
(I secretly think they are hedging their bets, waiting for the West to see what a failure EVs are, then ride in on a white horse saving the world so that we're all forced to switch to their HFCs.)

All hail the new boss, same as the old boss

I have considered for a long time that if we want change, then we have to get the current big boys to make it.

They have the funds and the incentive to create an ongoing business strategy.

Envy and loathing from the green/eco lobby will not encourage them to make the change. As you say they will wait for the minnows with scant rosorces to fail, then step in.

 

[CH512O]

Out of interest, do you install special fire protection, and battery temperature monitoring systems ? as one of those going toast could work out problematic
do they make electric tugs now to drag airframes about ?
I suppose an airport fire engine would benefit likewise from being battery powered, better acceleration, and no waiting for the engine to warm up in cold weather

Our batteries have cooling systems built in (dielectric fully immersed cells) and as you say in the aviation fuel world, fire is a little bit of an issue. There are more and more electric tug type equipment now because as I mentioned the footprint of deployment is airfield only and the infra is there to put a charging point in nearby. We dont deal with the tug side of life though.

 

[bobthebuilder]

OK I agree with your point that HFCs still need work and development, but by the same token so does battery technology.

Batteries use far more precious earth metals sourced from dubious practices that the current requirement for HFCs (although i will give you that Platinum has dubious sources itself).

Should the current requirement for HFCs change then we would have to look at the sourcing methods for it. The sourcing methods for cobalt and lithium in batteries is a pandoras box that has long been opened.

I would rather we invested in HFCs than Batteries though. That includes the production efficiency and storage as well as the production and development of HFCs as it is not a finite resource for the fuel.

As I said IMHO batteries are an evolutionary dead end but they are a step change to the next generation of EVs where a lot of the issues that stop me from buying an EV will be solved.

At that point I will happily migrate to EVs but for now the inconvenience of the infrastructure and the limited usefulness of the EV (Towing and my personal usage model) is just too much for me to accept.

Can you explain why you think batteries are an evolutionary dead end? I’m not convinced; I’m more convinced that FCEVs are a dead end.

I think we’ll soon reach a point at which batteries provide pretty much there same driving capabilities as ICEs. And we’ll see a much more sustainable supply chain as battery recycling becomes the norm.

The most efficient way of providing energy to do work moving a vehicle is to provide electricity even if you generate it using hydrocarbons because the losses in transmission and use are much lower. Generate electricity from a renewable source and the advantage is magnified.

Using electricity to convert gas into hydrogen or to electrolyse water is highly inefficient and that’s before you consider system losses in getting the hydrogen to the vehicle. Even if we resolve the real issues concerning fuel cells themselves, making hydrogen is never going to be efficient.

The problem with BEVs is, as we’ve discussed before, one of usability. IMHO we’re pretty much at the point where a BEV would fit almost all lifestyle requirements. In some cases (you’re one!), they would require compromises and in most cases they’re not yet affordable. But that will change; it has already.

 

[Goutyfrub]

And if you read the specifications of the vehicles sold in those countries they include battery pack environmental controls to keep the batteries at optimum temperature (Something not specified on vehicles destined for temperate climates, Norway is regarded as an arctic environment). The downside of that is that range is significantly reduced as it uses the batteries overnight to do so, it even impacts when plugged into domestic supply for overnight trickle charging.

Perfect in a country that doesn't have the same vehicle usage models and that has a wide ranging, reliable and inexpensive public transport network for long distances.

. Before you charge the battery pre conditions and warms so that it accepts the charge. Then as you are charging it maintains enough temperature to continue charging. In the depths of winter here it sometimes pre conditions for an hour or so before it starts taking the charge, depending on how I set the charge rate. Also I fully precondition for 45 minutes or so before I go out. All this is while it’s plugged into the house. Doing this in the winter the car thinks it’s July when I go out and performs as such. Along with a warm ready ti go battery and car I also have full range (as much as I charged) until I unplug it from the house.

Now after it’s been in the company parking lot all day in February and not plugged in. That’s a different matter.

 

[Goutyfrub]

The decision maker on our buying EVs will ultimately be the manufacturers. If they spend billions developing ranges of purely EVs (which is exactly what they are doing right now) then that’s the only new cars we will be able to buy. As stacker correctly said that will trickle down ti the used car market and will continuously reduce the number of fuel stations. The ICE market will ultimately consume itself and die. If there is a competitor to EV then it needs to throw its cards in now. If I was Mr Ford and I spent my billions retooling and developing EV, then I would want to see a return on my investment before I considered anything new, no matter how good or convenient it was for the user.

The change to EV is happening right now and the pace is growing.

 

[CH512O]

There is a big push within certain elements of the MOD to go for hydrogen. There is + and - with this as is any concept. My biggest issue is the Hydrogen Station that will replace the Petrol Station. Its not a case of "just swap out the petrol tank for a gas tank", as my friend sais who is quite high up in the Tesco Petrol Station world!

 

[bobthebuilder]

There is a big push within certain elements of the MOD to go for hydrogen. There is + and - with this as is any concept. My biggest issue is the Hydrogen Station that will replace the Petrol Station. Its not a case of "just swap out the petrol tank for a gas tank", as my friend sais who is quite high up in the Tesco Petrol Station world!

That applies to the whole supply chain; there would have to be new bulk storage at place of manufacture, possibly at local bulk storage depots if manufacture is remote and at the petrol station. Plus all new transport vehicles.

The infrastructure requirements to go for hydrogen vastly outweigh those for battery electric vehicles. In fact, for many BEVs there would be no infrastructure needed at all.

 

[Blogg]

I'm 40. If I bank on being dead by 60 with a strong headwind, then:

I get no return on investment in solar

I get no return on investment in battery storage

That might have been true in past but falling installation costs plus rising electricity prices have changed that quite a bit, but your use pattern will determine that.

Two months ago had 6.5kW of PV stuck on roof. Along with battery storage, through a local authority led group buy scheme, cost was just over £8k.

As of this moment has generated 1,633kWh since go live.

Peak generation months, sunny etc so that obviously won't continue all year but even on my most dismal projections payback time less than 10 years mainly because somebody is at home all day so can maximise self use.

If electricity prices go up as expected, 8 years.

Also the inverter has native UPS so if grid goes down starts to push out 240v to a couple of dedicated sockets which are otherwise dead.

Enough to run essentials of life for maybe 12 hours

 

[Blogg]

That applies to the whole supply chain; there would have to be new bulk storage at place of manufacture, possibly at local bulk storage depots if manufacture is remote and at the petrol station. Plus all new transport vehicles.

The infrastructure requirements to go for hydrogen vastly outweigh those for battery electric vehicles. In fact, for many BEVs there would be no infrastructure needed at all.

This has some potential but at what cost

Misleading headline: It is a BEV truck with a Hydrogen fuel cell.

So charges up overnight and has fuel cell acting as range extender

Hydrogen-powered lorry to be mass produced by Essex fleet operator

The 7.5-tonne truck can be driven for over 300 miles, according to Tevva. Diesel lorries will be banned in the UK by 2040 and the transport minister said hydrogen trucks will be "vital".

news.sky.com

 

[stacker1]

A large percentage was probably the wrong phrase i will give you that.

But a significant percentage of those in business who are in sales generation and engineering within large projects DO travel long distances regularly. They tend to be at the higher end of the wage structure.

I doubt it is significant, a small percentage at best. And those who earn the most are more likely to buy a top of the range EVs

There is still a significant number of working people who need to travel long distances.

Example.

A good friend of mine is a Power Generation commissioning engineer working in renewables. His days are spent at new power generation sites signing them off for safety. He does 65K miles per year and can visit over 10 disparate sites in one week from Cornwall to Essex and into Lancashire.

He rented a Tesla for one month to see if it would be suitable, after two weeks he handed it back as there was not enough time in his schedule for the recharging with the existing infrastructure. That was two months ago.

This is one of many examples I could give including tales from myself, colleagues and friends.

The stats appear to show that its isnt significant at all. Your mate works in an area where he might travel but most of the people in his company probably wont.

As I have stated I am not against EVs, I would love an EV, but in the UK (Not Norway) especially in rural UK the infrastructure and social business environment is not yet set up for battery powered EV use.

I keep saying that it isnt for everyone yet, there will always be a small minority where cost/convenience/usage will be better sticking to ICE, but they are in an ever decreasing minority. But to many people are using that minority as an excuse for the majority.

 

[stacker1]

For now.

Probably forever, even if they add on more tax, its far cheaper and more efficient to make electricity than it is petrol.

 

[stacker1]

Not so bad considering there is a ferry needed

View attachment 673755
Edit, with a speed limit of 50MPH

Two ferries but fairly short ones, my point is its still a long time for short journey.

 

[MongMastermind]

So how long does it take on average to get a full charge on a typical electric car?

 

[stacker1]

I'm 40. If I bank on being dead by 60 with a strong headwind, then:

I get no return on investment in solar

I get no return on investment in battery storage

I get no return on investment in an EV car.

We would need a good sized car for our family of four, which looking at the Hyundai Kona comes in at £36k bottom end. That's £800 a month. My current car still has an easy ten years in it.

Even taking into account cost of fuel, there's no ROI on buying an EV now, nor for me, will there ever be.

So I won't.

I remember my cousin when I was younger had a similar mindset of "you cant take it with you", which probably explains why 30 years odd years later she is living in a council house on benefits after two failed marriages.

When you are 60 and short on cash you might think that you made better decisions 20 years previous.

 

[Tappet]

So how long does it take on average to get a full charge on a typical electric car?

Let Me Google That

For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

 

[MongMastermind]

Let Me Google That

For all those people that find it more convenient to bother you with their question than to google it for themselves.

letmegooglethat.com

Thanks darling