What would make you buy an electric car?

Legs

ADC
Book Reviewer
The limitations of BEV's are still to be overcome, it's possible (I'd say probable) that battery tech will improve at some point which will mitigate the major range anxieties. The speed at which charge can be delivered - assuming rapid chargers are in service - probably can't be improved on significantly as Scotty said "I canna change the laws of physics".
My motoring habits were very similar to those @Pagan-Image has described plus quite a lot more, changed a lot in the last few years, may well change back. Some would argue that we're extreme edge cases, I'm not convinced with the number of people I know that have similar work related mileage demands.

All that said, battery tech is only ever going to be an interim or partial solution to power electric vehicles. Electric drive is a clear winner, the problem is fuelling.

That's the reason that Hydrogen Fuel Cell tech is the way ahead. We have the basic infrastructure in place. You know: Fuel Stations. Those buggers are everywhere. It just needs some investment in the storage tanks and delivery vehicles. I really don't see the issue with it. Yes, Hydrogen is explosive, but so is Petroleum fumes. And LPG. And no-one is afraid of those. It would put an end to charge point anxiety, range anxiety, sitting around for half an hour every two hours and so on. It just makes sense.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
That's the reason that Hydrogen Fuel Cell tech is the way ahead. We have the basic infrastructure in place. You know: Fuel Stations. Those buggers are everywhere. It just needs some investment in the storage tanks and delivery vehicles. I really don't see the issue with it. Yes, Hydrogen is explosive, but so is Petroleum fumes. And LPG. And no-one is afraid of those. It would put an end to charge point anxiety, range anxiety, sitting around for half an hour every two hours and so on. It just makes sense.
I had this argument with someone previously...

They said "but hydrogen engines are inefficient with a current range of about 200 miles" (Similar to EVs)

"Yes" i answered "but to refuel only takes 5 mins it is zero harmful emissions and the fuel is in abundant supply unlike the rare earth metals in batteries"
 

Tyk

LE
That's the reason that Hydrogen Fuel Cell tech is the way ahead. We have the basic infrastructure in place. You know: Fuel Stations. Those buggers are everywhere. It just needs some investment in the storage tanks and delivery vehicles. I really don't see the issue with it. Yes, Hydrogen is explosive, but so is Petroleum fumes. And LPG. And no-one is afraid of those. It would put an end to charge point anxiety, range anxiety, sitting around for half an hour every two hours and so on. It just makes sense.

I've made the same argument because it's entirely rational, be it fuel cells or other mechanics for hydrogen use.
Not forgetting that it obviates the need to have chunky electricity supplies in many, many thousands of locations. Tankers can deliver to places that would cost a fortune to hook up to major grid connections.
It also obviates the electricity generation issues and potentially smooths out the erratic nature of wind generation. Effectively acting as a storage solution for "over production" from wind turbines or other solutions such as tidal should they ever come about.
The B in BEV is the problem, it's solvable.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
I've made the same argument because it's entirely rational, be it fuel cells or other mechanics for hydrogen use.
Not forgetting that it obviates the need to have chunky electricity supplies in many, many thousands of locations. Tankers can deliver to places that would cost a fortune to hook up to major grid connections.
It also obviates the electricity generation issues and potentially smooths out the erratic nature of wind generation. Effectively acting as a storage solution for "over production" from wind turbines or other solutions such as tidal should they ever come about.
The B in BEV is the problem, it's solvable.
My Bold.

Exactly, the issue with EVs is the batteries, which are far more harmful to the planet in their production than the extraction and processing of fossil fuels. (Both are extremely bad)
 
An excellent point and well made, but this also applies to off road driving where this sub conversation started. It also shows that the pure range of the battery technology is not as good as advertised.

However, i come back to environmental conditions, In winter or summer I get approximately the same range in my ICE vehicle, you cannot say the same of EVs.

In Winter you have lost about a third of your range.

View attachment 673442

View attachment 673441
The efficiency of the electric drive train doesn’t change much in cold weather; in fact the battery requires less cooling while motor efficiency hardly varies at all with temperature. In really cold (snow and ice) temperatures, regenerative braking is very limited or switched off. Charging efficiency is lower; they take longer to charge. But in really cold conditions, ICE vehicles loose about 20% of their range too.

What does kill range is the heater. Whilst ICE cars generate a lot of waste thermal energy that can be used to heat the cabin, BEVs don’t. So you have to use battery power to heat the cabin.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
The efficiency of the electric drive train doesn’t change much in cold weather; in fact the battery requires less cooling while motor efficiency hardly varies at all with temperature. In really cold (snow and ice) temperatures, regenerative braking is very limited or switched off. Charging efficiency is lower; they take longer to charge. But in really cold conditions, ICE vehicles loose about 20% of their range too.

What does kill range is the heater. Whilst ICE cars generate a lot of waste thermal energy that can be used to heat the cabin, BEVs don’t. So you have to use battery power to heat the cabin.
As I said earlier, It is about the efficiency of the whole package!

A pizza can be a beautiful meal, but if the package comes with achchovies then the whole meal is less than it could be.
 
The efficiency of the electric drive train doesn’t change much in cold weather; in fact the battery requires less cooling while motor efficiency hardly varies at all with temperature. In really cold (snow and ice) temperatures, regenerative braking is very limited or switched off. Charging efficiency is lower; they take longer to charge. But in really cold conditions, ICE vehicles loose about 20% of their range too.

What does kill range is the heater. Whilst ICE cars generate a lot of waste thermal energy that can be used to heat the cabin, BEVs don’t. So you have to use battery power to heat the cabin.
It depends what kind of temperatures you are talking about. Below -20C Li-ion batteries lose about 40% of their capacity. Also, charging them below 0C requires them to be heated.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
Efficiency = work done / energy input x 100%
In a purely scientific/mathematical/engineering focus yes! If you are talking about the electric drive train on its own yes! What I am describing is the efficiency of the entire package in the real world conditions.

Colloquially the word is used to describe things outside of that narrow focus and is used for the ease of understanding of others.

An electric drive train is VERY efficient, but the whole package of battery, vehicle, heating, sub process systems, environmental conditions reduce the efficiency of the overall package.

As you have said, an ICE engine uses heat by product to set environmental condition is the vehicle which is an efficient use of that by product.

I dont like to engage in pedantry in any of these forums as I think it tends to detract from interesting discourse.

I have agreed with you on many points you have made, but most of those points have been taken in a very narrow focus. When combined in the larger picture the efficacy of the points has been watered down. A bit like the efficiency of EVs outside of ideal working conditions.

In the same way that spending 45 minutes to 'fast' charge an EV on the motorway is not an efficient use of my time!
 
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Tyk

LE
Efficiency = work done / energy input x 100%

Being pedantic about a word adds nothing to the debate, you know perfectly well that he was referring to the overall effectiveness of EV's as a solution to transport needs.
He's absolutely right it's the package that counts, the constituent bits are trivialities in comparison.

There are very real issues with Battery EV's as a solution to personal and business transportation, to list a few:-

Range
Refuelling time
Refuelling availability
Weather - specifically how it effects the range (irrespective of the cause) and refuelling. Electric drive can probably handle dodgy road conditions far better when the control systems are exploited to the full.
"Green" credentials being absurdly overblown as all they actually bring is lack of exhaust fumes in cities (a major plus)
Durability - Claims abound, but they simply haven't been around long enough or in large enough numbers to back those up
 

Being pedantic about a word adds nothing to the debate, you know perfectly well that he was referring to the overall effectiveness of EV's as a solution to transport needs.
He's absolutely right it's the package that counts, the constituent bits are trivialities in comparison.

There are very real issues with Battery EV's as a solution to personal and business transportation, to list a few:-

Range
Refuelling time
Refuelling availability
Weather - specifically how it effects the range (irrespective of the cause) and refuelling. Electric drive can probably handle dodgy road conditions far better when the control systems are exploited to the full.
"Green" credentials being absurdly overblown as all they actually bring is lack of exhaust fumes in cities (a major plus)
Durability - Claims abound, but they simply haven't been around long enough or in large enough numbers to back those up
Providing you can charge at home and aren’t doing long daily commutes those issues disappear.
 

Tyk

LE


Providing you can charge at home and aren’t doing long daily commutes those issues disappear.

Undoubtedly, but as discussed previously in the UK (unlike quite a few countries) with lots of old housing stock and residential roads that never foresaw even 1 private vehicle per house in their design charging at home isn't viable for everyone.
ICE cars don't have a parking problem tied to fuelling as we all know, BEV's most definitely do. Which is a significant concern and part of why I consider battery powering EV's a dead end.

The obvious very desirable end point is EV's that can be rapidly re-fuelled (may as well re-purpose existing filling station facilities) using hydrogen (or something whizzy like a Mr Fusion) have a sensible range and have a much smaller battery to exploit very clever things like regenerative braking. It also adds a lot of weight to a generation strategy that doesn't care if a renewable is a bit unreliable as hydrogen could be stockpiled and turbines could always be run at max capacity.
Putting recharging points all over the country has already been demonstrated as a major pain in the nuts and I'd argue is at least 5 years behind where it needs to be to even contemplate 2030 as a cut off date for sales of ICE new cars. Recharging points require connection to a grid with plenty of capacity and that's also in some doubt.
 
In a purely scientific/mathematical/engineering focus yes! If you are talking about the electric drive train on its own yes! What I am describing is the efficiency of the entire package in the real world conditions.

Colloquially the word is used to describe things outside of that narrow focus and is used for the ease of understanding of others.

An electric drive train is VERY efficient, but the whole package of battery, vehicle, heating, sub process systems, environmental conditions reduce the efficiency of the overall package.

As you have said, an ICE engine uses heat by product to set environmental condition is the vehicle which is an efficient use of that by product.

I dont like to engage in pedantry in any of these forums as I think it tends to detract from interesting discourse.

I have agreed with you on many points you have made, but most of those points have been taken in a very narrow focus. When combined in the larger picture the efficacy of the points has been watered down. A bit like the efficiency of EVs outside of ideal working conditions.

In the same way that spending 45 minutes to 'fast' charge an EV on the motorway is not an efficient use of my time!
Undoubtedly, but as discussed previously in the UK (unlike quite a few countries) with lots of old housing stock and residential roads that never foresaw even 1 private vehicle per house in their design charging at home isn't viable for everyone.
ICE cars don't have a parking problem tied to fuelling as we all know, BEV's most definitely do. Which is a significant concern and part of why I consider battery powering EV's a dead end.

The obvious very desirable end point is EV's that can be rapidly re-fuelled (may as well re-purpose existing filling station facilities) using hydrogen (or something whizzy like a Mr Fusion) have a sensible range and have a much smaller battery to exploit very clever things like regenerative braking. It also adds a lot of weight to a generation strategy that doesn't care if a renewable is a bit unreliable as hydrogen could be stockpiled and turbines could always be run at max capacity.
Putting recharging points all over the country has already been demonstrated as a major pain in the nuts and I'd argue is at least 5 years behind where it needs to be to even contemplate 2030 as a cut off date for sales of ICE new cars. Recharging points require connection to a grid with plenty of capacity and that's also in some doubt.
I don’t think I am being pedantic; the point I was making was that BEVs use about 1/3rd of the energy per mile compared with ICE cars and they do that because their drive trains are efficient in the engineering definition of the word. I make no apology for that; I am a mechanical engineer!

The rest is to a degree fluff. It’s answering the question “does a BEV fit into my lifestyle”, which is a question of efficacy not efficiency. And, as the industry moves to ever more BEVs we’re going to see electric cars become more and more viable for all. The best engineering businesses in the world are investing heavily into this.

Ignoring price, I struggle to see how a Tesla Model 3 Long Range wouldn’t fit almost any high mileage UK driver. It’s only going to get easier as ranges extend, charging availability improves efficiency improves.
 
The company that makes the Defender EV conversion kit highlights that it's primarily just as farm vehicle. It lists the following as Pros for considering shelling out £24k +VAT to keep an old wagon going:

Overall it is a great addition to the farm:
  • It improves sustainability – reducing carbon emissions, and recycling instead of replacing a useful farm vehicle
  • It saves money: it has a 4-year payback and the expected life of the batteries is 200,000 miles, and 50 years for the motor
  • It excels at short trips – quiet and efficient when a diesel engine would be cold and inefficient
  • The heater comes on instantly – very popular with the farm workers on cold mornings
  • No trips to the petrol station – very popular with farm managers!
  • It makes towing easy – performance is not compromised
  • It’s quiet and nippy – e.g. it’s great for nipping round behind the cows when you need to move them
It doesn't make any claim about motorway use. Just for towing a trailer of pigs off to the abbatoir or moving bags of feed around the farm. Quite some investment. It's alright for Michael Eavis to get a handful converted for use around the Glastonbury farm site as he's loaded, but your average farmer owner is just trying to keep a few quad bikes going and safe from pikey theft...
 
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Blogg

LE
Can anything ever be 99% reliable? OK - nuclear/aerospace etc might aim for 99.99..., but that comes at a cost. With EV's we're talking about something used and abused by Joe Public. More pie-in-the-sky bollox?

Yep. And so has potential to act as a huge disincentive
 

rmn

LE
The company that makes the Defender EV conversion kit highlights that it's primarily just as farm vehicle. It lists the following as Pros for considering shelling out £24k +VAT to keep an old wagon going:

Overall it is a great addition to the farm:
  • It improves sustainability – reducing carbon emissions, and recycling instead of replacing a useful farm vehicle
  • It saves money: it has a 4-year payback and the expected life of the batteries is 200,000 miles, and 50 years for the motor
  • It excels at short trips – quiet and efficient when a diesel engine would be cold and inefficient
  • The heater comes on instantly – very popular with the farm workers on cold mornings
  • No trips to the petrol station – very popular with farm managers!
  • It makes towing easy – performance is not compromised
  • It’s quiet and nippy – e.g. it’s great for nipping round behind the cows when you need to move them
It doesn't make any claim about motorway use. Just for towing a trailer of pigs off to the abbatoir or moving bags of feed around the farm. Quite some investment. It's alright for Michael Eavis to get a handful converted for use around the Glastonbury farm site as he's loaded, but your average farmer owner is just trying to keep a few quad bikes going and safe from pikey theft...
Can't see much call around here to replace diesel Rovers, especially out on West Falkland.
 

Tyk

LE
I don’t think I am being pedantic; the point I was making was that BEVs use about 1/3rd of the energy per mile compared with ICE cars and they do that because their drive trains are efficient in the engineering definition of the word. I make no apology for that; I am a mechanical engineer!

The rest is to a degree fluff. It’s answering the question “does a BEV fit into my lifestyle”, which is a question of efficacy not efficiency. And, as the industry moves to ever more BEVs we’re going to see electric cars become more and more viable for all. The best engineering businesses in the world are investing heavily into this.

Ignoring price, I struggle to see how a Tesla Model 3 Long Range wouldn’t fit almost any high mileage UK driver. It’s only going to get easier as ranges extend, charging availability improves efficiency improves.

No you were being pedantic as in the context of what he wrote efficient made sense. Oh and you're not the only engineer on this thread - I won't list them or the institutions, but I have undergrad and post grad rights to use the word engineer and I'm more than aware of the true engineering and scientific use of the word, however it's also used in English in other ways. all dependent on context.
As to your fluff I see you can't resist a dig even when there's a serious conversation ongoing it adds nothing.

Your point about a Tesla Long range totally ignores the recharging requirements, practicalities and the significant extra time that would have to be scheduled in, assuming that a working fast charger is available on arrival.

You labour under the impression you know best on everything and that BEV's are the answer, it's clear you're not interested in anyone else's point of view so I honestly don't understand why you engage in this conversation, you clearly view other people's opinions as contemptible.

The B in BEV is the massive Achilles heel of what will be a real revolution in motoring (not just cars, but commercials, trucks and busses) once the fuelling problem is addressed. Electric drive is clearly the way forwards for many very sound reasons.
 
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