What would make you buy an electric car?

...yeah what are they thinking of converting old Defenders into EV farm workhorses... tsk.. (for the princely sum of £24k +VAT)

If you're going to the bother of whipping the engine out of an old car and dropping in a few batteries you may as well try it with a classic car and try and keep these British icons on the road. ...try slipping a 300bhp power unit from a scrapped Tesla Model S into a 1967 Austin Mini that previously dished out 34bhp for instance...
 
Not too convinced about the claim for100 miles on road and considerably more off road. Other way round I would have thought. Won't stop Rovers chassis rot though, grumble grumble.
The 6K a year saving is a bit of a stretch too.
85l/90 tank so you'd need to fill it to the brim 34 times a year from empty at current diesel rates.
TD5 will happily chew on cheaper SVO in the summer months and you can blend and fit a preheater for the winter.
In reality it'll be a lot more times as around half of the return journeys it'll be the recovery firms fuel you'll be using.
Can't remember if this has been put on here before, but it's good all the same.



The comparison is also about buying new EVs vs buying new ICE, rather than new EVs to replace existing ICE vehicles. Worth bearing in mind.

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ETA: mong moment - put the wrong link in

Watched that the other day.
I liked the comparison with a modern diesel range and the equivalent battery for an EV and their gas that plants breathe output - EV 400 000 miles to break even. Thats quite a lot of recharges.
 

Blogg

LE
He also covered EV charging, costs of installation and the problems getting enough supply from the grid.

This. It is a problem because the grand assumptions made about the seamless roll out of charging infrastructure were bollox.

Now at point where to meet 2035 target will need to install 500 per day!

Also becoming apparent that there is a problem in terms of reliability, which Govt had blithely assumed would be 99%


 
This. It is a problem because the grand assumptions made about the seamless roll out of charging infrastructure were bollox.

Now at point where to meet 2035 target will need to install 500 per day!

Also becoming apparent that there is a problem in terms of reliability, which Govt had blithely assumed would be 99%


Obviously a reasonable assumption, after all, a charging point has many fewer moving parts than a petrol pump....

Sound familiar?
 
Not too convinced about the claim for100 miles on road and considerably more off road. Other way round I would have thought. Won't stop Rovers chassis rot though, grumble grumble.
My first instinct was the same as yours, but I've been thinking about it and now I'm not so sure.
My train of thought is that, petrol vehicles are more inefficient off-road than on-road because most of their duty-cycle is in the most inefficient part of their power (torque) generation curve. EV's, on the other hand, are more or less equally efficient across the whole operation range. Torque is generated only as required. Indeed, at low speeds off-road, an EV is not fighting against air resistance which makes up a considerable amount of the losses on-road.
So now, I'm not sure one way or the other.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
My first instinct was the same as yours, but I've been thinking about it and now I'm not so sure.
My train of thought is that, petrol vehicles are more inefficient off-road than on-road because most of their duty-cycle is in the most inefficient part of their power (torque) generation curve. EV's, on the other hand, are more or less equally efficient across the whole operation range. Torque is generated only as required. Indeed, at low speeds off-road, an EV is not fighting against air resistance which makes up a considerable amount of the losses on-road.
So now, I'm not sure one way or the other.
This is the same reason why EVs are not efficient on Motorways, wind resistance and environmental conditions adversely affect the range.

EVs are at their most efficient in towns and at low speed.
 
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This is the same reason why EVs are no efficient on Motorways, wind resistance and environmental conditions adversly affect the range.

EVs are at their most efficient in towns and at low speed.
That’s not quite true. The overall efficiency of an BEV is around 60% compared with around 20% for an ICE car. Overall efficiency being measured dividing the energy converted to work at the wheels divided by the energy loaded in fuel or charge.

The electric motor in a BEV is about 90% efficient. The best new ICE engines are 40% efficient (the difference between overall efficiency and power unit efficiency being the energy used to operate the vehicle systems).

BEVs are generally more aerodynamically efficient than ICE cars because they have fewer drag inducing openings (there’s no radiator grill for example) and a near completely flat floor pan with no exhausts, prop shafts etc.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
That’s not quite true. The overall efficiency of an BEV is around 60% compared with around 20% for an ICE car. Overall efficiency being measured dividing the energy converted to work at the wheels divided by the energy loaded in fuel or charge.

The electric motor in a BEV is about 90% efficient. The best new ICE engines are 40% efficient (the difference between overall efficiency and power unit efficiency being the energy used to operate the vehicle systems).

BEVs are generally more aerodynamically efficient than ICE cars because they have fewer drag inducing openings (there’s no radiator grill for example) and a near completely flat floor pan with no exhausts, prop shafts etc.
I refer you to the calculations on the Skoda website which I posted previously, where the range of the Enyaq drop by about a 2 fifths on the motorway.

As has been stated due to the flat torque curve of the electric motor, speed does not affect the efficiency of an electric motor in the same way as an ICE does. Therefore it is other factors mainly the environmental conditions that are affecting the workload of the motor and thus the reduction in range.

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As I keep saying, I am not against EV's but they are not efficient for all applications. In towns and cities and at low speeds where ICE engines are at their least efficient they are fantastic.
 
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Pagan-Image

War Hero
I refer you to the calculations on the Skoda website which I posted previously, where the range of the Enyaq drop by about a 2 fifths on the motorway.

As has been stated due to the flat torque curve of the electric motor, speed does not affect the efficiency of an electric motor in the same way as an ICE does. Therefore it is other factors mainly the environmental conditions that are affecting the workload of the motor and thus the reduction in range.

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View attachment 673439
As I keep saying, I am not against EV's but they are not efficient for all applications. In towns and cities they are fantastic.

My Diesel Renault gets 55 MPG ish around town and rural driving, in motorways I get about 48 MPG ish. so the real world efficiency if the diesel engine is better as I only get a reduction of about a tenth at motorway speeds.
 
I refer you to the calculations on the Skoda website which I posted previously, where the range of the Enyaq drop by about a 2 fifths on the motorway.

As has been stated due to the flat torque curve of the electric motor speed does not affect the efficiency of an electric motor in the same way as an ICE does. Therefore it is other factors mainly the environmental conditions that are affecting the workload of the motor and thus the reduction in range.

View attachment 673438
View attachment 673439
Range and efficiency aren’t the same thing though.

The environmental conditions are the same for both a BEV and an ICE car. They’re going up the same hills, accelerating and braking the same way and subject to the same drag (which is proportional to the square of velocity).

On any given journey, an electric car will use about 1/3rd of the energy that an ICE car will use. The difference is that an IVE car carries a lot more of it.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
Range and efficiency aren’t the same thing though.

The environmental conditions are the same for both a BEV and an ICE car. They’re going up the same hills, accelerating and braking the same way and subject to the same drag (which is proportional to the square of velocity).

On any given journey, an electric car will use about 1/3rd of the energy that an ICE car will use. The difference is that an IVE car carries a lot more of it.
Thats is where I totally agree with you. My issue with EVs is the disparity in the range during different driving environments.

As my ICE car can carry more energy I can go further without disruption. Added to the fact that the refueling disruption is less time consuming on an ICE vehicle, it is more practical.

If I had to commute 20 miles a day without long journeys, I would have an EV. As I have to travel 200+ miles every time I go to the office, or further to customer sites it just isn't practical.

When I use efficiency, I mean the efficiency of the whole package for practical use, not just the efficiency of the motor (where an EVs motor is inherently much more efficient, but it is also more susceptible to environmental conditions than an ICE car)
 
My Diesel Renault gets 55 MPG ish around town and rural driving, in motorways I get about 48 MPG ish. so the real world efficiency if the diesel engine is better as I only get a reduction of about a tenth at motorway speeds.
The big difference between town driving and motorway driving for a BEV is regenerative braking. Around town, a Tesla is recovering about 70% of the energy lost in braking. An ICE car recovers none.

On the motorway, a BEV doesn’t recover much energy because the car doesn’t brake much.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
The big difference between town driving and motorway driving for a BEV is regenerative braking. Around town, a Tesla is recovering about 70% of the energy lost in braking. An ICE car recovers none.

On the motorway, a BEV doesn’t recover much energy because the car doesn’t brake much.
An excellent point and well made, but this also applies to off road driving where this sub conversation started. It also shows that the pure range of the battery technology is not as good as advertised.

However, i come back to environmental conditions, In winter or summer I get approximately the same range in my ICE vehicle, you cannot say the same of EVs.

In Winter you have lost about a third of your range.

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Tyk

LE
The limitations of BEV's are still to be overcome, it's possible (I'd say probable) that battery tech will improve at some point which will mitigate the major range anxieties. The speed at which charge can be delivered - assuming rapid chargers are in service - probably can't be improved on significantly as Scotty said "I canna change the laws of physics".
My motoring habits were very similar to those @Pagan-Image has described plus quite a lot more, changed a lot in the last few years, may well change back. Some would argue that we're extreme edge cases, I'm not convinced with the number of people I know that have similar work related mileage demands.

All that said, battery tech is only ever going to be an interim or partial solution to power electric vehicles. Electric drive is a clear winner, the problem is fuelling.
 

Pagan-Image

War Hero
The limitations of BEV's are still to be overcome, it's possible (I'd say probable) that battery tech will improve at some point which will mitigate the major range anxieties. The speed at which charge can be delivered - assuming rapid chargers are in service - probably can't be improved on significantly as Scotty said "I canna change the laws of physics".
My motoring habits were very similar to those @Pagan-Image has described plus quite a lot more, changed a lot in the last few years, may well change back. Some would argue that we're extreme edge cases, I'm not convinced with the number of people I know that have similar work related mileage demands.

All that said, battery tech is only ever going to be an interim or partial solution to power electric vehicles. Electric drive is a clear winner, the problem is fuelling.
I know a lot of people (Mainly middle class working gammons to be fair) who have similar driving patterns.

Although I have to admit that with the current cost of fuel, I am now using the train for long journeys, even though it is more expensive, it goes straight to the company credit card and not out of my own bank initially.
 

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