What would make you buy an electric car?

exbluejob

LE
Book Reviewer
I doubt it would need to be much jiggery pokery, I cant think of any other domestic appliance that draws 7 KW at all let alone for an extended period.
Yeah but how do they figure out what was drawing what and when?
 

Old Scribes

Old-Salt
In the article it states that anyone who got a subsidised home charger had to have smart meters. From June that's rolled out to the masses. You can bet your sweet patooties that there is some jiggery pokery in the wigglyamps that tells the energy supplier when you're charging your EV. Instead of the government hoovering up petrol duty collected by the oil companies they'll now get it by the energy suppliers. No government chasing people to cough up the readies, not my job Guv. Cheers easy
That's all fine and dandy if the electricity companies hand over the 'fuel tax' portion of the bill. Quite a few of the smaller suppliers who went under in recent years collected the 'green levy' - but failed to pass it on to the government.
 
As I have said before the Beeching report was very, very short sighted and has actually caused more issues than it solved
 
I pity the youth of today having to make those decisions on whether to commit hard earned cash into driving lessons. Why bother? In 5+ years time the roads will start to become the reserve of a shrinking number of well off folk who can afford to put massively expensive petrol/diesel in their older motors if they still have them or those folk with £20-£30k minimum to spare on even a low spec EV.

With the strict regs around MOTs and emission tests there will be very few old bangers out there to pick up for £500 like there used to be 'back in the day'...

Round my way it costs £94 for a 2hr lesson (they don't seem to provide 1hr lessons at most schools). £102 for a 2hr lesson in the evening or weekend. £450 for 5x 2hr bookings. ..that's a big slice of 'holiday fund' or 'music festival' money. If they live in small towns or rural villages then the option of bus/train isn't there like it is in London to give them mobility and independence. The only EV they'll be able to aspire to will be an electric scooter. Kind of cramps the style of young lads trying to cop off with girls after the town bop. No more shagging on back seats...
 
I pity the youth of today having to make those decisions on whether to commit hard earned cash into driving lessons. Why bother? In 5+ years time the roads will start to become the reserve of a shrinking number of well off folk who can afford to put massively expensive petrol/diesel in their older motors if they still have them or those folk with £20-£30k minimum to spare on even a low spec EV.

You can already buy an EV for less than 30K, the youth of today will be just fine without older people pretending they give a shit about them when really they just want to moan about EVs.



With the strict regs around MOTs and emission tests there will be very few old bangers out there to pick up for £500 like there used to be 'back in the day'...

Round my way it costs £94 for a 2hr lesson (they don't seem to provide 1hr lessons at most schools). £102 for a 2hr lesson in the evening or weekend. £450 for 5x 2hr bookings. ..that's a big slice of 'holiday fund' or 'music festival' money. If they live in small towns or rural villages then the option of bus/train isn't there like it is in London to give them mobility and independence. The only EV they'll be able to aspire to will be an electric scooter. Kind of cramps the style of young lads trying to cop off with girls after the town bop. No more shagging on back seats...


Some people cant afford a "holiday fund" or "music festival" so if the middle class would rather waste their money than get something that is highly likely to get them a job in the future, thats not really a hardship.
 

exbluejob

LE
Book Reviewer
I pity the youth of today having to make those decisions on whether to commit hard earned cash into driving lessons. Why bother? In 5+ years time the roads will start to become the reserve of a shrinking number of well off folk who can afford to put massively expensive petrol/diesel in their older motors if they still have them or those folk with £20-£30k minimum to spare on even a low spec EV.

With the strict regs around MOTs and emission tests there will be very few old bangers out there to pick up for £500 like there used to be 'back in the day'...

Round my way it costs £94 for a 2hr lesson (they don't seem to provide 1hr lessons at most schools). £102 for a 2hr lesson in the evening or weekend. £450 for 5x 2hr bookings. ..that's a big slice of 'holiday fund' or 'music festival' money. If they live in small towns or rural villages then the option of bus/train isn't there like it is in London to give them mobility and independence. The only EV they'll be able to aspire to will be an electric scooter. Kind of cramps the style of young lads trying to cop off with girls after the town bop. No more shagging on back seats...
Back in the day getting your first car and asking round your mates where was the 'best' place to get an MOT done. Doing loads of repairs yourself with parts bought (or uuummm liberated) from scrappies. In my case a mini, with the usual problems of rotted sub frame, easy fix to buy the external panels and get them welded on, looked Ok but hid a multitude of sins :) Next car was an escort, could see the road through a hole near the accelerator, wet feet in the rain, had to guess the speed as the cable to the speedo was broken. The good olde days ;-)
 

Old Scribes

Old-Salt
Back in the day getting your first car and asking round your mates where was the 'best' place to get an MOT done. Doing loads of repairs yourself with parts bought (or uuummm liberated) from scrappies. In my case a mini, with the usual problems of rotted sub frame, easy fix to buy the external panels and get them welded on, looked Ok but hid a multitude of sins :) Next car was an escort, could see the road through a hole near the accelerator, wet feet in the rain, had to guess the speed as the cable to the speedo was broken. The good olde days ;-)
"Welded on". That was posh. What was wrong with a few pop-rivets?
 
It's possible that tax rates may drop, but I think it's extremely improbable.
I fully expect car charging to be taxed at ever increasing rates as revenues from fuel sales and VED drop. Charging stations will see taxation applied and the taxation of home supplies for charging is a matter of time, as per the article linked recently a "smart" meter will be required and anyone who doesn't see where that leads is being blind or wilfully naïve. Fully expect some new offences on the statute books for avoiding the car charging taxes too.
Well we will see about the tax and how it goes. Here it’s all hydro so apart from infrastructure they don’t pay much to generate it anyway.

With your comment on new offences for tax avoidance, is that for the end user or the owner of the charging station.

If they do tax home users I wonder if they will ever consider charging people with solar power. When I started I considered a solar roof with a power wall type system to run the car. At this stage with the low cost of home charging and the investment needed on the roof etc it’s not worth it. If I was a lot younger I would consider it again.
 

Tyk

LE
Interesting you mention hydro power, hydro is the only meaningful renewable (apart from nuclear) but UK governments seem averse to it, despite this country getting heaps of rain.
True the UK lacks Norway's super abundance of suitable hydro sites, but there are absolutely heaps of possibles in Scotland, Wales and here in the Pennines.
Easier to maintain dams and their gen sets than wind and vastly more reliable as apart from exceptionally rare extreme drought it's an on demand capacity that's totally predictable with inherent storage and the benefit of potentially using the water for other uses. Sure the concrete has a CO2 footprint, but considering the durability of dams and the massive durability over wind turbines it's irrelevant.
It was a stupid decision and an entirely predictable one at that, to bet the farm on wind generation, it's proven to be unreliable and expensive and inefficient none of which would have been true for hydro over the lifespan of the investment.
Taxation wise the offence is likely to be for the charge station owner as they'd have to bypass the metering of the charging, while current chargers don't have in built metering that requirement is only a matter of time.
I'd fully expect the charge to cars to be taxed irrespective of if the property has solar as the argument can and will be made that it's a tax on the motoring aspect irrespective of where the power is sourced.
The UK Government gets so much revenue from motorists they're never going to shrug it off it WILL be clawed back irrespective of the "green credentials".
 

glad rag

Old-Salt
Not going to raise enough. Most EV are going to be doing short runs then parked up for the day. If you only tax when it moves you're losing lots of lovely tax. Every time you fill up your petrol tank your front loading loads of tax. The chancellor doesn't car if you pay for a tank of tax and leave it parked, he's got your money already.
Obviously tax electricity [more]!
 
Interesting you mention hydro power, hydro is the only meaningful renewable (apart from nuclear) but UK governments seem averse to it, despite this country getting heaps of rain.
True the UK lacks Norway's super abundance of suitable hydro sites, but there are absolutely heaps of possibles in Scotland, Wales and here in the Pennines.
Easier to maintain dams and their gen sets than wind and vastly more reliable as apart from exceptionally rare extreme drought it's an on demand capacity that's totally predictable with inherent storage and the benefit of potentially using the water for other uses. Sure the concrete has a CO2 footprint, but considering the durability of dams and the massive durability over wind turbines it's irrelevant.
It was a stupid decision and an entirely predictable one at that, to bet the farm on wind generation, it's proven to be unreliable and expensive and inefficient none of which would have been true for hydro over the lifespan of the investment.
Taxation wise the offence is likely to be for the charge station owner as they'd have to bypass the metering of the charging, while current chargers don't have in built metering that requirement is only a matter of time.
I'd fully expect the charge to cars to be taxed irrespective of if the property has solar as the argument can and will be made that it's a tax on the motoring aspect irrespective of where the power is sourced.
The UK Government gets so much revenue from motorists they're never going to shrug it off it WILL be clawed back irrespective of the "green credentials".
Your post made me think about solar again. Re reading some of our tax info (Revenue Canada) on solar is seems to say that the power you use to run your own house isn’t taxable. The only tax liability seems to be on the income you earn putting it back to the grid (FIT Feed-in Tarriff).It doesn’t sound like they have a mechanism or intent to separate what you use to run the car as opposed to say the air-con etc. it’s early days yet and I would surmise that taxation other than standard with the hydro bill will be a long time coming For at home charging.

i guess you use all the cards you have and wind power seems like a reasonable one to me although not as a sole source. Windy and not so windy days will happen. We should be ok for a bit with hydro I can imagine quite a few years before the Niagara river runs dry.
 
You say that, but if the UK actually generated electricity to meet demand then there would be no need to import.

In theory wind and other renewables should be very low cost to produce in these days of sky rocketing fuel prices, your pedantic argument over the way the market operates doesn't obscure the fact that the prices are going up as if they were rocket propelled.

IF renewables, which the UK has concentrated around wind were actually a viable, reliable, dependable producer then we wouldn't be stuck with :-
  1. Importing electricity - This country was and still should be, self sufficient for many strategically important reasons
  2. Sizable price hikes causing genuine problems to lower income people due to shortages on the world markets
  3. Real concerns about how to supply power in sufficient quantities to business
  4. Real concerns about how to supply power in sufficient quantities to charge EV's which will get exponentially worse should EV sales really take off like they very well could
  5. Green lobby would rightly be shut the F up
Your endless wobbling on about the markets does NOT obfuscate the point that the current renewables we have aren't up to the task NOW, let alone in the future. We simply don't have the generating capacity, not even close to it and Wind, while appealing, isn't up to the job, despite the UK generally being a fairly windy place.
An alternative market focused view would be that the interconnectors provide the UK wholesale market with access to cheap surplus power at a price significantly lower than it would cost to generate in the UK (the infrastructure costs being sunk into the generators home markets).


It begs the question; would British businesses and consumers prefer to buy more expensive British electricity rather than cheap French? Because the real reason why the interconnectors run hot most of the time is because the power is cheap and available all of the time.

My dig at @anglo was, however, aimed at his economically illiterate claim that energy companies profit gouge. That claim completely ignores that, in a trading market place where price is set by bid and sell, profit gouging is impossible unless there’s a cartel fixing prices or insider trading. In a market as regulated as the UK energy market and with so many players, neither of those are likely. My other issue was his wibble about coal, which completely missed the biomass.

Understanding the energy market is not obsfucation; it’s fundamental to understanding what is going on. The UKs wind assets operate at well below their potential load factor because of market factors.
 
An alternative market focused view would be that the interconnectors provide the UK wholesale market with access to cheap surplus power at a price significantly lower than it would cost to generate in the UK (the infrastructure costs being sunk into the generators home markets).


It begs the question; would British businesses and consumers prefer to buy more expensive British electricity rather than cheap French? Because the real reason why the interconnectors run hot most of the time is because the power is cheap and available all of the time.

My dig at @anglo was, however, aimed at his economically illiterate claim that energy companies profit gouge. That claim completely ignores that, in a trading market place where price is set by bid and sell, profit gouging is impossible unless there’s a cartel fixing prices or insider trading. In a market as regulated as the UK energy market and with so many players, neither of those are likely. My other issue was his wibble about coal, which completely missed the biomass.

Understanding the energy market is not obsfucation; it’s fundamental to understanding what is going on. The UKs wind assets operate at well below their potential load factor because of market factors.
I would venture that it's far more fundamental than that, going back to earlier arguments. What is the point of scrapping perfectly viable oil engines and the carriages they reside in just to produce new cars at double the cost, when it would be easier to sell an aftermarket electric motor, battery pack as has been done before? The answer has to lie in the fact that there's a hell of a lot of money to be made to force us to buy into alternatives.

I wouldn't mind so much if the rural bus or train services could be there almost on demand and even that begs the question of why, when the Government/ NHS are depending more online services to form their contact. We can shop on line, we can order deliveries on line, what is the incentive to spend astronomical amounts on space age vehicles and where is it? Coming from someone who has never bought a new car or spent more than fifteen hundred quid max and has run each one for ten years, I think we aught to be told.

I mean there have always been those with more money than sense who have no objection to losing 40% of their investment the moment a wheel turns and certainly the SMMT are concerned seeing the end of their fruitful opportunities but you are not going to tell me that those well of motor memorabilia collectors are going to have infringements on their use of cars worth millions. That's as unlikely as the NRA changing it's tune on guns.
 

anglo

LE
An alternative market focused view would be that the interconnectors provide the UK wholesale market with access to cheap surplus power at a price significantly lower than it would cost to generate in the UK (the infrastructure costs being sunk into the generators home markets).


It begs the question; would British businesses and consumers prefer to buy more expensive British electricity rather than cheap French? Because the real reason why the interconnectors run hot most of the time is because the power is cheap and available all of the time.

My dig at @anglo was, however, aimed at his economically illiterate claim that energy companies profit gouge. That claim completely ignores that, in a trading market place where price is set by bid and sell, profit gouging is impossible unless there’s a cartel fixing prices or insider trading. In a market as regulated as the UK energy market and with so many players, neither of those are likely. My other issue was his wibble about coal, which completely missed the biomass.

Understanding the energy market is not obsfucation; it’s fundamental to understanding what is going on. The UKs wind assets operate at well below their potential load factor because of market factors.

Understanding the energy market is not obsfucation; it’s fundamental to understanding what is going on. The UKs wind assets operate at well below their potential load factor because of market factors.

Load factor as FA to do with the market
Load Factor: the ratio of the amount of electricity produced by a wind farm to its total potential, based on nameplate capacity, over a period of time (usually one year, to account for seasonal variability in output).
What is meant by load factor?
Or.
Load factor is an expression of how much energy was used in a time period, versus how much energy would have been used, if the power had been left on during a period of peak demand. It is a useful indicator for describing the consumption characteristics of electricity over a period of time.

FFS, stop bullshitting
 

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