What would make you buy an electric car?

anglo

LE
You’re not very good at critical thinking are you? You’re stuck on the idea that a single meter showing no supply means there’s no wind. And yet you question why I bring pricing into the debate when the pricing mechanism is fundamental to how demand works.

So let’s delve further.

Base load power is sold forward on long term contracts. The power being generated today by base load sets in the UK or coming through the inter-connectors was contracted for weeks ago. Those long term contracts are filling the bulk of the demand in summer when demand is low.

The relatively small variable gap between base load and demand is mostly met by gas installations, selling power on short term contracts (7 days forward).

Wind power is not sold forward; it’s sold into the day market, where there is only demand if the forward purchased power isn’t meeting the load. And it’s quite possible (even common) for forward sold power to exceed the load, which is where imbalance charges kick in.

Most wind power is sold at a fixed price via the CFD mechanism. That price may or may not be more than the cost of base load power, which is priced dynamically. In periods of low demand, base load prices are lower than wind power prices. French nuclear power is always cheaper than the fixed price for wind, which is why the French inter-connector nearly always runs at full capacity.

Until you start to consider how the electricity market works, you will remain fixated with the ridiculous idea that the UK goes for long periods of time with no wind.
To be clear, there’s a sea breeze always kicks in on a calm, hot summers day. That’s basic physics.
"You’re stuck on the idea that a single meter showing no supply means there’s no wind".

Since I put the single meter up, I put up the source of where that meter was obtained,
which shows long periods of no wind to drive the wind turbines


"you will remain fixated with the ridiculous idea that the UK goes for long periods of time with no wind"

I said no wind to drive the wind turbines


"To be clear, there’s a sea breeze always kicks in on a calm, hot summers day. That’s basic physics"

But not enough to drive the wind turbines, IE, no wind to drive the wind turbines


The rest of your post about pricing is pure flannel, and has no relevance to the debate,
So, no more shit about pricing please
The debate is
There are long periods of not enough wind to drive the wind turbines,
hence, no wind to drive the turbines

Taken from your link and taken from my link, they both show long periods of low wind turbine output
IE, no wind to drive the turbines,
The output as rarely gone about 5GW all month, which should be considered as low output,
when set against the rated capacity of the wind turbines is 25GW
Also, when set against the average {28.588GW} of the gas run turbines

Screenshot 2021-07-30 at 09-10-19 Wind power production.png
Screenshot 2021-07-30 at 09-34-35 G B National Grid status.png
 
"You’re stuck on the idea that a single meter showing no supply means there’s no wind".

Since I put the single meter up, I put up the source of where that meter was obtained,
which shows long periods of no wind to drive the wind turbines


"you will remain fixated with the ridiculous idea that the UK goes for long periods of time with no wind"

I said no wind to drive the wind turbines


"To be clear, there’s a sea breeze always kicks in on a calm, hot summers day. That’s basic physics"

But not enough to drive the wind turbines, IE, no wind to drive the wind turbines


The rest of your post about pricing is pure flannel, and has no relevance to the debate,
So, no more shit about pricing please
The debate is
There are long periods of not enough wind to drive the wind turbines,
hence, no wind to drive the turbines

Taken from your link and taken from my link, they both show long periods of low wind turbine output
IE, no wind to drive the turbines,
The output as rarely gone about 5GW all month, which should be considered as low output,
when set against the rated capacity of the wind turbines is 25GW
Also, when set against the average {28.588GW} of the gas run turbines

View attachment 592637View attachment 592638
The key phrase in your post is “You continue to conflate low turbine output with low wind turbine output IE no wind to drive the turbines”.

You are conflating no demand for wind power with no wind to drive the turbines. There is no logical connection and any number of images of generator output doesn’t create proof.


It’s pretty simple. When there’s demand, they turbines operate. When there isn’t they don’t. The demand is largely driven by the pricing structure which is deliberately designed to ensure that base load always has demand.

The summer sea breeze will nearly always drive a turbine.

Do some research. Think. Question. The latest offshore farms have load factors over 50%. How the hell would they achieve that if there is no wind?
 

anglo

LE
The key phrase in your post is “You continue to conflate low turbine output with low wind turbine output IE no wind to drive the turbines”.

You are conflating no demand for wind power with no wind to drive the turbines. There is no logical connection and any number of images of generator output doesn’t create proof.


It’s pretty simple. When there’s demand, they turbines operate. When there isn’t they don’t. The demand is largely driven by the pricing structure which is deliberately designed to ensure that base load always has demand.

The summer sea breeze will nearly always drive a turbine.

Do some research. Think. Question. The latest offshore farms have load factors over 50%. How the hell would they achieve that if there is no wind?
It’s pretty simple. When there’s demand, they turbines operate. When there isn’t they don’t. The demand is largely driven by the pricing structure which is deliberately designed to ensure that base load always has demand.

That is complete rubbish, along with the rest of your post, you have no frecking idea of how
the UK grid system works, I've been in electrical engineering all my life, and never come
across anyone as frecking thick as you

Just

E42EC115-3D15-4650-A51A-0C22097A0BE1.jpg
 

Chef

LE
Some years back I asked if there's any 'green' business run entirely by wind generation and would any 'green' type be happy to be on life support entirely based on 'green' energy with no comforting back up diesel generators in the hospital's basement.
 

anglo

LE
Some years back I asked if there's any 'green' business run entirely by wind generation and would any 'green' type be happy to be on life support entirely based on 'green' energy with no comforting back up diesel generators in the hospital's basement.
I suppose a farm with one or two wind turbines, and solar panels, backed up by batteries
might work, but once you start going bigger, your problems would start to build up
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
One thing I've learned this week is that we will still require recovery trucks to be Diesel powered, given the number of BEV's recovered in with varying ailments, ranging from overheating batteries to traction motors leaking coolant with some AC charge controllers having a meltdown...
 
One thing I've learned this week is that we will still require recovery trucks to be Diesel powered, given the number of BEV's recovered in with varying ailments, ranging from overheating batteries to traction motors leaking coolant with some AC charge controllers having a meltdown...
I had asked bosshogg (Road patrol officer on M6) what happens with EVs if they run out of power on the motorway, answer was that they all got recovered by a truck. Now I read that some RAC vans have a little generator to provide some juice, dunno how long it takes to charge one to get it off the mway.
 
It’s pretty simple. When there’s demand, they turbines operate. When there isn’t they don’t. The demand is largely driven by the pricing structure which is deliberately designed to ensure that base load always has demand.

That is complete rubbish, along with the rest of your post, you have no frecking idea of how
the UK grid system works, I've been in electrical engineering all my life, and never come
across anyone as frecking thick as you

Just

View attachment 592681
You may have “been in electrical engineering” all your life but this debate has nothing to do with engineering. It’s about the commercials of wind farms and the operation of the power market.

Why would anyone operate a wind turbine when there’s no demand? Why would anyone operate a turbine when the imbalance charge they occur would mean they make a loss? Why would anyone invest in wind farms if they they can’t operate for the large amounts of time you claim?

From a power engineering perspective, how could the grid balance if wind turbines produce power when demand is low and being fulfilled by long contract sources?

The answers are all commercial. **** all to do with wind. So start answering those questions. I’ve provided you with plenty of source information.
 
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Some years back I asked if there's any 'green' business run entirely by wind generation and would any 'green' type be happy to be on life support entirely based on 'green' energy with no comforting back up diesel generators in the hospital's basement.
Apart from the car I certainly have no, or very few green credentials. From time to time we still experience power cuts for a whole host of reasons. I’m sure the enormous hospital in our town has a back up plan for these, which as you say probably involves diesel generators. If it’s a long term interruption you have to wonder when the diesel would run dry. Then a bank of handy solar panels on the roof, or a wind farm next door might be the answer.

I guess if it was me I would be more comfortable thinking that the hospital would have as many different power inputs as possible. And if it is renewables I would prefer lots of wind farm, and or solar to get in a bit of redundancy.
 

anglo

LE
Apart from the car I certainly have no, or very few green credentials. From time to time we still experience power cuts for a whole host of reasons. I’m sure the enormous hospital in our town has a back up plan for these, which as you say probably involves diesel generators. If it’s a long term interruption you have to wonder when the diesel would run dry. Then a bank of handy solar panels on the roof, or a wind farm next door might be the answer.

I guess if it was me I would be more comfortable thinking that the hospital would have as many different power inputs as possible. And if it is renewables I would prefer lots of wind farm, and or solar to get in a bit of redundancy.
This gives a good idea of what the hospitals put in place to preserve power supplies

Screenshot 2021-07-31 at 18-13-50 S1791R-Derriford-Combined-Heat-and-Power-Unit pdf.png


Plus normal grid power supplies
 

anglo

LE
a new retirement complex near us has the same system, its nothing new, the Germans installed them in factories in 1914 !!
only worry is gas prices
Don't know anything about them, Josh, just giving a bloke some idea what the hospitals install,
to keep the power on during general power failures
 
This gives a good idea of what the hospitals put in place to preserve power supplies

View attachment 592928

Plus normal grid power supplies
I would also assume that they'll have a UPS (uninterruptable Power Supply), usually batteries, as well which will kick in seamlessly if the mains drops and covers for the period until the generator kicks in.
 

anglo

LE
I would also assume that they'll have a UPS (uninterruptable Power Supply), usually batteries, as well which will kick in seamlessly if the mains drops and covers for the period until the generator kicks in.
I don't know much about the way they organize the hospital standby generators
 
I don't know much about the way they organize the hospital standby generators
Same as every other essential service which requires power. My profession is Air traffic Control, couple of sites in the UK they have 80 tons of batteries for the UPS and 4 generators (although only 1 is required to run the entire site). UPS is a BIG industry nowadays.
 
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