What would make you buy an electric car?

I am helping a friend sort out charging in a planned underground garage at his new offices, I have suggested over head supply cables to save space, so you can pull them along a sliding frame and connect up wherever you are parked, otherwise it would be a pain to ensure all the electric cars are in one space ( and never likely to happen)
something like this

That looks great and would go some way to resolve the terraced house issue as well. Also with different vehicles having the charge points in different locations on the car. Very accessible.
 
Regardless of the practical viability of EVs, they are going to have to change "form factor" quite dramatically.

Currently EVs are a bit like "horseless carriages", built as modifications of- or to imitate the shape of- the ICE vehicles they replace. It seems to me that the architecture of some popular models is quite bodged and illogical from a design point of view.

I'm pretty sure that if batteries are to be replaced, hot-swapped, repaired, have commonality, or even spares kept, then the typical EV vehicle design will have to resemble something like a minivan - a detachable slab battery sat in a frame between the front and rear wheels, with the passenger compartment sat on top. Vehicles will be taller and shorter - more box like.
Why? The current generation of pure EVs nearly all build the batteries into a skateboard chassis. The next generation if skateboards will likely be interchangeable. The skateboard will carry all of the batteries and moving components. The body carries all of the driver passenger needs. The body attaches by a few hard points and all the controls are drive by wire. You can put any body form you want on the skateboard.

This stuff is already here. The next generation EV platforms from GM, VAG, Hyundai-Kia, Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi and Toyota are all skateboards that can take any body style.

As for battery changing, that’s here too and not just for replacing life expired batteries. NIO have over 200 “power stations” in China where they swap out a flat battery for a charged one.
 
I wouldn't be too sure about that, I know a lot of companies have car parking spaces, but will they also be putting in charging points for staff? If they do, how much will the taxman be taking off your wages?
The last company I worked for in UK had the main 'office' 3 miles from the HQ, both employed around 1500 people each site. 'Office' was mainly shift workers so parking was no problem. HQ was normal office staff and the (leased) building was in an office park site, across the road from Zurich Insurance call centre. The council would not allow parking for more than 80% of staff in all of the office buildings in the park, you can imagine that every office parking space was full along with road side space. The 80% was to encourage people to use alternate modes of transport i.e. the 1 bus in the morning and 1 in the evening or the train 2 miles away.

No electric charging points and I don't see why the leasing company would be incentivised to spend a large sum of money putting in power points. Doesn't help those parked on the road.
 

Fr SpodoKomodo

War Hero
Right now in 8 hours I can put about 580km (360 miles) in my car overnight in 8 hours. The reality if I was charging more cars is a little higher time wise as getting in at say 7pm and leaving the next day at 7am is 12 hours, that’s 864km or 536 miles. Thats a 178 mile round trip for each commuting car (3 cars).

Now the driving reality would be lower let’s say a 120 mile daily commute for each car. would all three car owners each be working 12 hour days including the commute. Again as @theinventor said you’re living in the wrong place.

Sure the charging I have quoted is set at maximum but is possible now. Also given that is is coming in ten years or so, Charging will be quicker and there will most likely be charging availability for those commuting where they work etc.

I’m not looking this stuff up, charging happens each and every night in my driveway. Really it’s not that difficult, but if you don’t want to do it then don’t.

I really don’t understand why you’re getting your knickers in a twist about this. I think you don’t understand the physics because “Also given that is is coming in ten years or so, Charging will be quicker” is wrong, and exactly the point I’m talking about!

Charging will not be ‘quicker’. A 7KW capacity charger is the max you can install at home on a traditional single phase AC supply as anymore will overload it. That is literally the limit of the technology. That can’t be improved on.

To charge quicker at home would necessitate the power DNO for your region upgrading your property to three phase AC which at present would then allow a charger of max 22KW to be installed, i.e 3 times faster. Or for interests sake, at considerable cost, installing a DC charger with roof solar panel/multiple battery system which would charge in 30 mins at hundreds of KW like a Tesla supercharger but the hardware would be very pricy.

So for that 8 hours it takes you to charge your one car, you have to double it for when there’s a second one on the drive for her indoors in the future which has now halved the output to each car. Then multiply by 3 for the grown up kids first car. Suddenly that charging time on 7KW is massive. Do you see what I mean about future proofing?
 
I really don’t understand why you’re getting your knickers in a twist about this. I think you don’t understand the physics because “Also given that is is coming in ten years or so, Charging will be quicker” is wrong, and exactly the point I’m talking about!

Charging will not be ‘quicker’. A 7KW capacity charger is the max you can install at home on a traditional single phase AC supply as anymore will overload it. That is literally the limit of the technology. That can’t be improved on.

To charge quicker at home would necessitate the power DNO for your region upgrading your property to three phase AC which at present would then allow a charger of max 22KW to be installed, i.e 3 times faster. Or for interests sake, at considerable cost, installing a DC charger with roof solar panel/multiple battery system which would charge in 30 mins at hundreds of KW like a Tesla supercharger but the hardware would be very pricy.

So for that 8 hours it takes you to charge your one car, you have to double it for when there’s a second one on the drive for her indoors in the future which has now halved the output to each car. Then multiply by 3 for the grown up kids first car. Suddenly that charging time on 7KW is massive. Do you see what I mean about future proofing?
You are right I don’t understand the physics, I’m not technical. All I know is that I drive a Tesla that I charge in my driveway each night without issues. I live in a regular house with standard electrical appliances, a hot tub and two A/C units. At some stage going forward my wife will also get an E/V. Again I’m not anticipating any issues. One small question, with multiple vehicles if you are worried, why charge them all at the same time.
 
Battery technology is starting to move forward but it doesn't look like a game changer yet.

 

DAS

War Hero
So for that 8 hours it takes you to charge your one car, you have to double it for when there’s a second one on the drive for her indoors in the future which has now halved the output to each car. Then multiply by 3 for the grown up kids first car. Suddenly that charging time on 7KW is massive. Do you see what I mean about future proofing?
As with my present ice cars which I don't refuel every day there's no real reason to recharge any of the newer longer range ev models every night. We are looking to replace two cars with ev alternatives this year and with our commutes alternate days charging is still nowhere near emptying the "tank".
 

Tyk

LE
As with my present ice cars which I don't refuel every day there's no real reason to recharge any of the newer longer range ev models every night. We are looking to replace two cars with ev alternatives this year and with our commutes alternate days charging is still nowhere near emptying the "tank".

Assuming you have a suitable place to charge at home and your mileage habits are fairly constant you're well suited to the current battery EV offerings. The only inconveniences you're maybe going to struggle with are forgetting to charge or an exceptional long trip with short timescales, neither of which are show stoppers.
 
Published by: Simon Newton, Tom Sables, ORCES NET, on 20 July 2021.

Army Hybrids: Up Close With Military's New Experimental Vehicles

The vehicles, including a Jackal, a Foxhound and a MAN supply truck, are part of the military's aim to reach net-zero emissions by 2050.

Army Hybrids: Up Close With Military's New Experimental Vehicles. The British Army has developed the vehicles, including a Jackal, a Foxhound and a MAN supply truck, as part of the military's aim to reach net-zero emissions by 2050.

As defence looks to reduce its carbon emissions, the British Army vehicle fleet is being put forward for potential hybrid transformation.

The Jackal, the Foxhound and the MAN supply truck are all part of the experiment at Millbrook Proving Ground in Bedfordshire.

A major climate change report this year detailed the military's plans to help the UK reach net-zero emissions while maintaining capability.

Lieutenant Colonel Ed Sutthery, head of British Army Innovation, Research and Experimentation, explained some of the potential benefits if defence turns to the hybrid solutions.

Silent vehicle running to give "greater power demand" could eliminate the need for personnel to turn on the engine in an overwatch position, he said, reducing the risk of compromise.

Once vehicles enter electric mode the only audible noise "is the noise of the wheels on the Tarmac," he added.

The pictures below offer a glimpse of the testing in Bedfordshire:
1627382225141.png


Currently, defence accounts for half of all the Government's carbon emissions and wants to hit net-zero by 2050.


With this in mind, it has turned to Sheffield-based electric and vehicle manufacturer MAGTEC to strip apart the vehicles for transformation – part of £7m of defence-funded research into hybrid vehicles.

In the reconfigured Jackal, an electric generator takes the place of the standard gearbox while an electric motor is designated to each of the four wheels.

With the left and right-hand side wheels capable of moving in opposite directions, the hybrid Jackal can pivot and turn on the spot.

This is "something that only tracked vehicles up to now have been able to do," said Marcus Jenkins, managing director of MAGTEC.

In addition, the hybrid vehicles can supply power to external sources.

With its engine running, the MAN support vehicle can produce 500 kilowatts of electricity – equivalent to nine generators.

Using only its batteries, the redesigned workhorse of the service has enough energy to keep the average UK home fully powered for 18 days.

Bedfordshire's experiments will continue until Christmas before the Army itself puts the hybrid concept models to task in field testing.

NOTE: Follow link for videos that move !!


Note; Posted on this "what-would-make-you-buy-an-electric-car" thread, and also on the general "All interweb links and vdeos in here" thread.
 

Chef

LE
Published by: Simon Newton, Tom Sables, ORCES NET, on 20 July 2021.

Army Hybrids: Up Close With Military's New Experimental Vehicles

The vehicles, including a Jackal, a Foxhound and a MAN supply truck, are part of the military's aim to reach net-zero emissions by 2050.

Army Hybrids: Up Close With Military's New Experimental Vehicles. The British Army has developed the vehicles, including a Jackal, a Foxhound and a MAN supply truck, as part of the military's aim to reach net-zero emissions by 2050.

As defence looks to reduce its carbon emissions, the British Army vehicle fleet is being put forward for potential hybrid transformation.

The Jackal, the Foxhound and the MAN supply truck are all part of the experiment at Millbrook Proving Ground in Bedfordshire.

A major climate change report this year detailed the military's plans to help the UK reach net-zero emissions while maintaining capability.

Lieutenant Colonel Ed Sutthery, head of British Army Innovation, Research and Experimentation, explained some of the potential benefits if defence turns to the hybrid solutions.

Silent vehicle running to give "greater power demand" could eliminate the need for personnel to turn on the engine in an overwatch position, he said, reducing the risk of compromise.

Once vehicles enter electric mode the only audible noise "is the noise of the wheels on the Tarmac," he added.

The pictures below offer a glimpse of the testing in Bedfordshire:View attachment 591942

Currently, defence accounts for half of all the Government's carbon emissions and wants to hit net-zero by 2050.


With this in mind, it has turned to Sheffield-based electric and vehicle manufacturer MAGTEC to strip apart the vehicles for transformation – part of £7m of defence-funded research into hybrid vehicles.

In the reconfigured Jackal, an electric generator takes the place of the standard gearbox while an electric motor is designated to each of the four wheels.

With the left and right-hand side wheels capable of moving in opposite directions, the hybrid Jackal can pivot and turn on the spot.

This is "something that only tracked vehicles up to now have been able to do," said Marcus Jenkins, managing director of MAGTEC.

In addition, the hybrid vehicles can supply power to external sources.

With its engine running, the MAN support vehicle can produce 500 kilowatts of electricity – equivalent to nine generators.

Using only its batteries, the redesigned workhorse of the service has enough energy to keep the average UK home fully powered for 18 days.

Bedfordshire's experiments will continue until Christmas before the Army itself puts the hybrid concept models to task in field testing.

NOTE: Follow link for videos that move !!


Note; Posted on this "what-would-make-you-buy-an-electric-car" thread, and also on the general "All interweb links and vdeos in here" thread.
Interesting, this would make the components and materials in the battery packs strategically important.

Petrol/dieso we can source from many places. Who supplies the Lithium and rare earths needed for advanced EV/Hybrids?
 
Interesting, this would make the components and materials in the battery packs strategically important.

Petrol/dieso we can source from many places. Who supplies the Lithium and rare earths needed for advanced EV/Hybrids?
These guys:
1627385765590.png
 

Tyk

LE
Interesting, this would make the components and materials in the battery packs strategically important.

Petrol/dieso we can source from many places. Who supplies the Lithium and rare earths needed for advanced EV/Hybrids?

Fair question, at least in theory the battery packs in the hybrids should have a substantial service life, but it's no mystery that in the presence of squaddies stuff breaks, not THAT easy to lose, but possible. Not like military vehicles live pampered lives on drives and motorways.

Essentially the proposed hybrids are following the ages old diesel electric train model (plus biggish battery stage) which works really well for heavy lifting plus the added benefits of selective drive to any of the wheels in any direction which isn't a trivial set of benefits.
I'd question the "green" credentials of such a vehicle as it would run off the genset a lot of the time in order to use the battery as a situational reserve so it's basically a diesel wagon with electric drive with a decently efficient genset.

ETA Should some clever bugger design a Mr Fusion or some fuel cell solution the vehicles could just be upgraded to swap out the genset so it's got some sensible future proofing.
 
Last edited:

anglo

LE

That is being repeated now, we have another long period with no wind turbine output

Possible problems with the electricity generating network became a big issue in Britain earlier this month when the national grid warned that because of a lack of wind, the generating capacity might get close to failure, and so-called blackouts. Wind power can provide up to 60% of Britain’s power, so long periods of quiet weather puts pressure on the back-up capacity.

Nothing's changed still the same today

Currently, anyone wanting to drive their electric car over longer distances faces a potential nightmare. In Britain and Germany, and by implication probably throughout Europe, there are about 10 different charging purveyors. They each require a separate phone app to download with all your details. None of them talk to each other. Add to that a notorious reliability record, and the fact that many cheaper electric cars shed “available” miles at an alarming rate, sometimes twice as fast as those actually travelled, and that means many visits to the charging point than innocent electric car buyers may initially imagine.
 

That is being repeated now, we have another long period with no wind turbine output

Possible problems with the electricity generating network became a big issue in Britain earlier this month when the national grid warned that because of a lack of wind, the generating capacity might get close to failure, and so-called blackouts. Wind power can provide up to 60% of Britain’s power, so long periods of quiet weather puts pressure on the back-up capacity.

Nothing's changed still the same today

Currently, anyone wanting to drive their electric car over longer distances faces a potential nightmare. In Britain and Germany, and by implication probably throughout Europe, there are about 10 different charging purveyors. They each require a separate phone app to download with all your details. None of them talk to each other. Add to that a notorious reliability record, and the fact that many cheaper electric cars shed “available” miles at an alarming rate, sometimes twice as fast as those actually travelled, and that means many visits to the charging point than innocent electric car buyers may initially imagine.
No, you have a period of no wind turbine demand.

It’s also rather strange that other sources don’t corroborate with your single source. A single source that only looks at the instantaneous reading.

This one from UK Gridwatch shows a very different position. Note the yearly chart; there is no day on which wind did not contribute power.

 

anglo

LE
No, you have a period of no wind turbine demand.

It’s also rather strange that other sources don’t corroborate with your single source. A single source that only looks at the instant reading.

This one from UK Gridwatch shows a very different position.


No, you have a period of no wind turbine demand.

If the turbines are producing, the grid always buys their output, as it's the cheapest electricity
which enables the grid to shut down gas plants

Your link doesn't work

It’s also rather strange that other sources don’t corroborate with your single source. A single source that only looks at the instant reading.

My link shows
Today
The last week
The last month
The last year
What more do you want? Prove the data below wrong


G. B. National Grid status

Screenshot 2021-07-28 at 14-37-30 G B National Grid status.png


Below, L click to enlarge

Screenshot 2021-07-28 at 14-38-58 G B National Grid status.png


 
Last edited:
No, you have a period of no wind turbine demand.

If the turbines are producing, the grid always buys their output, as it's the cheapest electricity
which enables the grid to shut down gas plants

Your link doesn't work

It’s also rather strange that other sources don’t corroborate with your single source. A single source that only looks at the instant reading.

My link shows
Today
The last week
The last month
The last year
What more do you want? Prove the data below wrong


G. B. National Grid status

View attachment 592236

Below, L click to enlarge

View attachment 592239

The link works for me, but go to www.gridwatch.co.uk, which leads to multiple options for charts showing supply sources etc etc. None of them show a single day on which there was zero electricity generated by wind. My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't.

As I posted before, it simply makes no meteorological sense to suggest that the UK has multiple days on which there is no wind anywhere; the only time that can occur is when there is a winter high pressure squeeze which is roughly a one in ten year event. In summer high pressure systems there will always be a sea breeze once the land heats up. The Government's own digest of energy statistics specifically identifies the sea breeze as the reason for high load factors achieved by offshore wind farms in summer.


Your are right that wind turbines produce the cheapest electricity when they are operating, but that is not how their electricity is priced in the market place. The market is designed to keep the supply side and grid are balanced and it includes a mechanism to ensure that electricity produced by irreducible base load capacity is always sold. You cannot have a system where base load generators who have little scope to react to short term demand peaks and troughs cannot sell their output as it would imbalance the grid. So there is a system of imbalance pricing which effectively penalises wind generators to ensure that base land generators can sell their output at periods of low demand. Here's a guide to imbalance pricing:


Even then, it's not that simple. There are several market mechanisms for wholesale electricity, including forward priced contracts, spot contracts and CFDs. Have a look at his Electricity Data Summary | BMRS
 

anglo

LE
The link works for me, but go to www.gridwatch.co.uk, which leads to multiple options for charts showing supply sources etc etc. None of them show a single day on which there was zero electricity generated by wind. My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't.

As I posted before, it simply makes no meteorological sense to suggest that the UK has multiple days on which there is no wind anywhere; the only time that can occur is when there is a winter high pressure squeeze which is roughly a one in ten year event. In summer high pressure systems there will always be a sea breeze once the land heats up. The Government's own digest of energy statistics specifically identifies the sea breeze as the reason for high load factors achieved by offshore wind farms in summer.


Your are right that wind turbines produce the cheapest electricity when they are operating, but that is not how their electricity is priced in the market place. The market is designed to keep the supply side and grid are balanced and it includes a mechanism to ensure that electricity produced by irreducible base load capacity is always sold. You cannot have a system where base load generators who have little scope to react to short term demand peaks and troughs cannot sell their output as it would imbalance the grid. So there is a system of imbalance pricing which effectively penalises wind generators to ensure that base land generators can sell their output at periods of low demand. Here's a guide to imbalance pricing:


Even then, it's not that simple. There are several market mechanisms for wholesale electricity, including forward priced contracts, spot contracts and CFDs. Have a look at his Electricity Data Summary | BMRS
Two screenshots taken at the same time, there is basically no différance, they are near enough showing the same readings. We shall see when the output of the wind turbines drops again

Screenshot 2021-07-29 at 10-50-54 G B National Grid status.png
Screenshot 2021-07-29 at 10-50-14 GB Fuel type power generation production.png
"As I posted before, it simply makes no meteorological sense to suggest that the UK has multiple days on which there is no wind anywhere;"

I have not said there is no wind anywhere, I said there is no wind to drive the wind turbines,
It's you that insisted I said there no wind, in one post I mentioned the low wind, and you specified a wind turbine that worked at low speed, so we are not talking about no wind but no wind to drive the wind turbines, which is obvious when the output of the wind turbines is below 0.5GW and the rated capacity of
the wind turbines is 24GW

"Your are right that wind turbines produce the cheapest electricity when they are operating",

As I said

"how their electricity is priced in the market place"

why are you bringing pricing into the debate

"The market is designed to keep the supply side and grid are balanced and it includes a mechanism to ensure that electricity produced by irreducible base load capacity is always sold. You cannot have a system where base load generators who have little scope to react to short term demand peaks and troughs cannot sell their output as it would imbalance the grid. So there is a system of imbalance pricing which effectively penalises wind generators to ensure that base land generators can sell their output at periods of low demand. Here's a guide to imbalance pricing:

you could have said, The base must be high enough to keep the grid stable
not that stability of the grid is not being debated

The rest of your post is about pricing, when the debate is about lack of output from the wind turbines
due to not enough wind to drive the turbines


EDIT, "The link works for me, but go to www.gridwatch.co.uk, which leads to multiple options for charts showing supply sources etc etc. None of them show a single day on which there was zero electricity generated by wind. My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't."

. "My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't."

Bullshit

The website that you quote gets its information from the same place as the website I quote,
your quoted website quotes in 10minute averages, that's all

Stop digging
 
Last edited:
Two screenshots taken at the same time, there is basically no différance, they are near enough showing the same readings. We shall see when the output of the wind turbines drops again

View attachment 592404View attachment 592405"As I posted before, it simply makes no meteorological sense to suggest that the UK has multiple days on which there is no wind anywhere;"

I have not said there is no wind anywhere, I said there is no wind to drive the wind turbines,
It's you that insisted I said there no wind, in one post I mentioned the low wind, and you specified a wind turbine that worked at low speed, so we are not talking about no wind but no wind to drive the wind turbines, which is obvious when the output of the wind turbines is below 0.5GW and the rated capacity of
the wind turbines is 24GW

"Your are right that wind turbines produce the cheapest electricity when they are operating",

As I said

"how their electricity is priced in the market place"

why are you bringing pricing into the debate

"The market is designed to keep the supply side and grid are balanced and it includes a mechanism to ensure that electricity produced by irreducible base load capacity is always sold. You cannot have a system where base load generators who have little scope to react to short term demand peaks and troughs cannot sell their output as it would imbalance the grid. So there is a system of imbalance pricing which effectively penalises wind generators to ensure that base land generators can sell their output at periods of low demand. Here's a guide to imbalance pricing:

you could have said, The base must be high enough to keep the grid stable
not that stability of the grid is not being debated

The rest of your post is about pricing, when the debate is about lack of output from the wind turbines
due to not enough wind to drive the turbines


EDIT, "The link works for me, but go to www.gridwatch.co.uk, which leads to multiple options for charts showing supply sources etc etc. None of them show a single day on which there was zero electricity generated by wind. My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't."

. "My reference to you single a single source BTW was about you posting an image of a single metre, to prove your case. It doesn't."

Bullshit

The website that you quote gets its information from the same place as the website I quote,
your quoted website quotes in 10minute averages, that's all

Stop digging
You’re not very good at critical thinking are you? You’re stuck on the idea that a single meter showing no supply means there’s no wind. And yet you question why I bring pricing into the debate when the pricing mechanism is fundamental to how demand works.

So let’s delve further.

Base load power is sold forward on long term contracts. The power being generated today by base load sets in the UK or coming through the inter-connectors was contracted for weeks ago. Those long term contracts are filling the bulk of the demand in summer when demand is low.

The relatively small variable gap between base load and demand is mostly met by gas installations, selling power on short term contracts (7 days forward).

Wind power is not sold forward; it’s sold into the day market, where there is only demand if the forward purchased power isn’t meeting the load. And it’s quite possible (even common) for forward sold power to exceed the load, which is where imbalance charges kick in.

Most wind power is sold at a fixed price via the CFD mechanism. That price may or may not be more than the cost of base load power, which is priced dynamically. In periods of low demand, base load prices are lower than wind power prices. French nuclear power is always cheaper than the fixed price for wind, which is why the French inter-connector nearly always runs at full capacity.

Until you start to consider how the electricity market works, you will remain fixated with the ridiculous idea that the UK goes for long periods of time with no wind.
To be clear, there’s a sea breeze always kicks in on a calm, hot summers day. That’s basic physics.
 

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