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What trade are / were you?

What trade are / were you?

  • Op MI

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  • Op MI(L) (or other Linguist trade)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Op Int & Sy

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • AN(SI)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • DE Int Corps Officer

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  • Transferee Int Corps Officer

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  • Something else (non-Int Corps)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Scorptin,

You raise some interesting points there yourself. Are you suggesting that your hierarchy expects the Coys and Sects to do all their mandatory military training (that's the training, not just spending 1 week a year doing all the tests) and then work all the hours necessary to get their work in ASAP?

There has to be a balance struck here. If you want all your PS/CI reports (for arguments sake) done in a defined timeframe then something else has to give. Hammering the blokes when they're not on Ops just pisses them off when they inevitably do deploy. Then of course you have the other guys working twice as hard having to make up for their deployed workmates.

This is also where the CoC earn their cash. There are too many instances where a barking idea from Bn / Coy HQ is not given an instant reality check at conception. This relates to an unwillingness to risk upsetting a CO/OC in order to further peoples own careers, unfortunately.
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
Op_Int_and_Spy said:
This is also where the CoC earn their cash. There are too many instances where a barking idea from Bn / Coy HQ is not given an instant reality check at conception. This relates to an unwillingness to risk upsetting a CO/OC in order to further peoples own careers, unfortunately.

you know, i sometimes wonder if COs aren't a lot cleverer than people give them credit for. i think some of them occasionally float stupid ideas just to see what people say. it's an extension of playing devil's advocate. i have done this on occasion in the past (obviously at a far lower level) - certainly lets you get to know who the yes-men are and who has the balls to say: "hang on a minute, that's a fucking stupid idea." (and i firmly believe that the German invasion of Poland began as just such an exercise by Hitler :) )

unfortunately i have seen it far more where - as you rightly point out - people are completely unwilling to stick their heads above the parapet, no matter WHAT the provocation! i have seen it at the point where i could swear it is actually a wind-up / test / bizarre exercise, where people will take a patently stupid idea and run with it, simply because they are too career-conscious to speak out against it. i honestly believe i once detected a grizzled old ex-regt COS* inwardly laughing at the ridiculous behaviour he had provoked from his staff :D

before anyone picks me up on this - please give me a little credit. i know sometimes it can be a good exercise to bounce around a seemingly stupid idea and make it workable, or reject it only when it has been done to death. i am not talking about that.

i am talking about when a bunch of career-conscious officers eagerly agree with the most stupid idea ever suggested, simply to be agreeing with the senior officer who thought it up.

worst examples i ever saw were in a joint organisation, and to a lesser extent in a div hq. but i have to say that i have yet to see this behaviour really exhibited by anybody who is not commissioned (but that's because we are never present at meetings where anything important is decided :) ). and the worst culprits, in my extremely humble opinion, have been majors - particularly those who appear to be borderline as to whether they are going to get any further. LE officers seem to be far more likely to speak out.

obviously the above is all my humble humble opinion, and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental :)




* - this was a full colonel who once gave me a different perspective on people going sick. he was in the regt in oman in 72, one of those completely inspirational guys you seldom get to work for. i had been bedded down one day. next day when i turned in for work, the COS asked me:

"where were you yesterday LCpl X?"

"bedded down by the doc Sir. Gastro-enteritis or something."

"Ah. i had the afternoon off once....... when i was shot."


:D funny fucker
 

Green_Goblin

War Hero
Op_Int_and_Spy said:
Scorptin,

You raise some interesting points there yourself. Are you suggesting that your hierarchy expects the Coys and Sects to do all their mandatory military training (that's the training, not just spending 1 week a year doing all the tests) and then work all the hours necessary to get their work in ASAP?

There has to be a balance struck here. If you want all your PS/CI reports (for arguments sake) done in a defined timeframe then something else has to give. Hammering the blokes when they're not on Ops just pisses them off when they inevitably do deploy. Then of course you have the other guys working twice as hard having to make up for their deployed workmates.

This is also where the CoC earn their cash. There are too many instances where a barking idea from Bn / Coy HQ is not given an instant reality check at conception. This relates to an unwillingness to risk upsetting a CO/OC in order to further peoples own careers, unfortunately.

I have been a Sect and CoyWO and have had no problems in making sure these things are done. Im am not suggesting that we hammer the guys when not on Ops, but if there is work to be done and timelines to be adhered to then we stay in work to achieve these. There are too many people nowadays who think that as soon as 1700hrs comes (or in some cases earlier!) it is knocking off time, irrespective of work commitments. If there is work to be done it is done, if not then knock off on time, have a sports afternoon, go down the boozer, have section bonding sessions or what ever flicks your switch. I am not one that advocates sitting in the office for the sake of it if the OC/CO is in and I do not expect my soldiers to do the same, but if there is work to be done, it is done.
 

252_me

Old-Salt
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
Op_Int_and_Spy said:
This is also where the CoC earn their cash. There are too many instances where a barking idea from Bn / Coy HQ is not given an instant reality check at conception. This relates to an unwillingness to risk upsetting a CO/OC in order to further peoples own careers, unfortunately.

you know, i sometimes wonder if COs aren't a lot cleverer than people give them credit for. i think some of them occasionally float stupid ideas just to see what people say. it's an extension of playing devil's advocate. i have done this on occasion in the past (obviously at a far lower level) - certainly lets you get to know who the yes-men are and who has the balls to say: "hang on a minute, that's a fucking stupid idea." (and i firmly believe that the German invasion of Poland began as just such an exercise by Hitler :) )

unfortunately i have seen it far more where - as you rightly point out - people are completely unwilling to stick their heads above the parapet, no matter WHAT the provocation! i have seen it at the point where i could swear it is actually a wind-up / test / bizarre exercise, where people will take a patently stupid idea and run with it, simply because they are too career-conscious to speak out against it. i honestly believe i once detected a grizzled old ex-regt COS* inwardly laughing at the ridiculous behaviour he had provoked from his staff :D

before anyone picks me up on this - please give me a little credit. i know sometimes it can be a good exercise to bounce around a seemingly stupid idea and make it workable, or reject it only when it has been done to death. i am not talking about that.

i am talking about when a bunch of career-conscious officers eagerly agree with the most stupid idea ever suggested, simply to be agreeing with the senior officer who thought it up.

worst examples i ever saw were in a joint organisation, and to a lesser extent in a div hq. but i have to say that i have yet to see this behaviour really exhibited by anybody who is not commissioned (but that's because we are never present at meetings where anything important is decided :) ). and the worst culprits, in my extremely humble opinion, have been majors - particularly those who appear to be borderline as to whether they are going to get any further. LE officers seem to be far more likely to speak out.

obviously the above is all my humble humble opinion, and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental :)




* - this was a full colonel who once gave me a different perspective on people going sick. he was in the regt in oman in 72, one of those completely inspirational guys you seldom get to work for. i had been bedded down one day. next day when i turned in for work, the COS asked me:

"where were you yesterday LCpl X?"

"bedded down by the doc Sir. Gastro-enteritis or something."

"Ah. i had the afternoon off once....... when i was shot."


:D funny fucker

That was funny, but your point(s) is/are valid.
 

Cider_Glider

Old-Salt
We got thinned out early yesterday for Phys, so I missed the replies, which I have now read with interest.

Scorpion, I can assure you that I have not just plucked the points I raised from my Dot, I have spoken to a wide range of people/ranks and these came up most of the time. IIRC they all agreed that the 'green sh*t' was a good thing, don't get me wrong, but also couldn't see how it was all to fit in and around work, as Op Int said CI/PS for example.

I also think that you need to realise people aren't going to speak out in such forums as Bn Conc when asked 'what's wrong with the Bn' espcially if you ask the juniors. I include myself when I say that I would be very hesitant of raising issues with the hierachy because I'm pretty sure all I would get back would be a mixture of baffling management-speak and a nice way of saying 'wind your facking neck in you scrote what do you know'.

I think this also stems from the fact that alot of juniors in the Bn feel that we are not trusted, which I find ironic as our entire vetting system is based on trust. For example, staying with the theme of Mil Trg, last year's Bn Conc the 'we' (the juniors) were only used as drivers and riflemen. Now before you start saying 'we were all there once, shut up and get promoted if you want to have more privilages, I fully understand that that is the case. However, We are ALL NCO's and therefore have the potential to go on tour and be put in a command role with Ptes, Gnrs etc. There were no stands or exercises, that I recall, to test/teach/expand the leadership skills at a Junior level. Now surely that should be on the CO's list of 'Things to do'?

I'll say now that I will take any backlash to this, and also that I think 2 MI is a gleaming place to work compared to some other postings availiable. But I felt I should air my views.
 

252_me

Old-Salt
Scorptin said:
I have been a Sect and CoyWO and have had no problems in making sure these things are done. Im am not suggesting that we hammer the guys when not on Ops, but if there is work to be done and timelines to be adhered to then we stay in work to achieve these. There are too many people nowadays who think that as soon as 1700hrs comes (or in some cases earlier!) it is knocking off time, irrespective of work commitments. If there is work to be done it is done, if not then knock off on time, have a sports afternoon, go down the boozer, have section bonding sessions or what ever flicks your switch. I am not one that advocates sitting in the office for the sake of it if the OC/CO is in and I do not expect my soldiers to do the same, but if there is work to be done, it is done.

Here's a what if. It's a Wednesday afternoon and you are invited to do potted sports or have a kick around (with a football) with your Sect Comd. You have a report to do and respectfully request that you be allowed to 'sit this one out' to complete the report. It'll never happen, you'll have to come back later and complete the job.

It's all about priorities and people seem to want their cake and eat it. I've heard the old chesnut about knocking off when there's no work to do and not sitting in the office for the sake of it so many times now I no longer believe it. To be honest, there is always something you could be doing in any Sect. It's whether you should or need to that's the question.
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
252_me said:
Scorptin said:
I have been a Sect and CoyWO and have had no problems in making sure these things are done. Im am not suggesting that we hammer the guys when not on Ops, but if there is work to be done and timelines to be adhered to then we stay in work to achieve these. There are too many people nowadays who think that as soon as 1700hrs comes (or in some cases earlier!) it is knocking off time, irrespective of work commitments. If there is work to be done it is done, if not then knock off on time, have a sports afternoon, go down the boozer, have section bonding sessions or what ever flicks your switch. I am not one that advocates sitting in the office for the sake of it if the OC/CO is in and I do not expect my soldiers to do the same, but if there is work to be done, it is done.

Here's a what if. It's a Wednesday afternoon and you are invited to do potted sports or have a kick around (with a football) with your Sect Comd. You have a report to do and respectfully request that you be allowed to 'sit this one out' to complete the report. It'll never happen, you'll have to come back later and complete the job.

It's all about priorities and people seem to want their cake and eat it. I've heard the old chesnut about knocking off when there's no work to do and not sitting in the office for the sake of it so many times now I no longer believe it. To be honest, there is always something you could be doing in any Sect. It's whether you should or need to that's the question.

i'm with scorptin on this. 252, it sounds like yours is a section level problem, not a corps one. if you truly believe this "knocking off when not busy" thing is a myth, you're mistaken.

ffs if you can't get knocked off to do phys when there is nothing pressing on, there is something wrong. if you have reports up to your eyeballs - phys takes a back seat. it all ebbs and flows. some weeks our guys get away to do phys fairly frequently at 4 - especially run-up to PFT etc. other weeks, they work late without complaint, through lunchtimes etc. one of my operators works through every lunchtime.

there needs to be some balance, and a solution for each individual section (as they are all different). "are the guys & gals happy?" is the main thing. maintenance of morale & unit cohesion is the first duty of every leader.

we have a duty to ensure they have enough time for phys / sport / recreation. but likewise, soldiers are not dumb. they know if its a busy period, work must come first. in my experience, they are happy with this AS LONG AS they are allowed time off for the fun things when it IS possible. occasionally you get a leader who is reluctant to let the guys knock off to do sport even though there no urgent / important work on, for fear of "how it looks". but i stress this has been a tiny minority in my experience.

it's all about looking after the soldiers, and demonstrating it - not just talking about it. there is far less resentment at pulling last-minute weekend exercises etc if the guys know you will get them a day off in lieu. if they've been working their arses off all week and heads are down, a surprise lunchtime knock-off can do wonders for morale.

look after the guys & gals and they will be happy. show that you care and make every effort to make their lives better, and they will appreciate it - even if not every plan comes off, or things fall through, or fastball jobs come in which scupper your plans.

252, it seems you're not happy and i feel for your predicament. but i honestly don't believe it is representative of a battalion, let alone the corps as a whole.
 

Green_Goblin

War Hero
Cider_Glider said:
We got thinned out early yesterday for Phys, so I missed the replies, which I have now read with interest. SEE IT DOES HAPPEN!!!!


I think this also stems from the fact that alot of juniors in the Bn feel that we are not trusted, which I find ironic as our entire vetting system is based on trust. For example, staying with the theme of Mil Trg, last year's Bn Conc the 'we' (the juniors) were only used as drivers and riflemen. Now before you start saying 'we were all there once, shut up and get promoted if you want to have more privilages, I fully understand that that is the case. However, We are ALL NCO's and therefore have the potential to go on tour and be put in a command role with Ptes, Gnrs etc. There were no stands or exercises, that I recall, to test/teach/expand the leadership skills at a Junior level. Now surely that should be on the CO's list of 'Things to do'?

I see what you are getting at CG. There is only so much that can be put into PDT and over the years it has grown from being one week to nearly 10 days. I'm sure that on the next Bn Conc you WILL have the oportunity to display your leadership skills both in a green and trade orientated environment!!! :twisted:
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
Scorptin said:
CR I Thank you! I know your Section has lots of spare time on their hands, as when I call there is no-one ever there!

that's only because i gave you the padre's number instead of mine :)

(and we're very busy, thank you kindly. and getting busier in the future with the likely formation of a rather large phase 2 and phase 3 defence training academy on our patch! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6268427.stm )
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
Cider_Glider said:
For example, staying with the theme of Mil Trg, last year's Bn Conc the 'we' (the juniors) were only used as drivers and riflemen. Now before you start saying 'we were all there once, shut up and get promoted if you want to have more privilages, I fully understand that that is the case. However, We are ALL NCO's and therefore have the potential to go on tour and be put in a command role with Ptes, Gnrs etc. There were no stands or exercises, that I recall, to test/teach/expand the leadership skills at a Junior level. Now surely that should be on the CO's list of 'Things to do'?

I'll say now that I will take any backlash to this, and also that I think 2 MI is a gleaming place to work compared to some other postings availiable. But I felt I should air my views.

can i suggest you volunteer for Ex Griffins Focus this year then? last year the CO's directive - pushed hard down the chain - was that the juniors were to be given as much responsibility as possible. PM me if you want the names of JNCOs who took part; you can call them and i'm sure they will testify that this was implemented. not just field security stuff (which was varied enough in itself), but giving orders, leading vehicle patrols into hostile areas, practising & leading contact drills against live enemy, participating in helicopter insertions & extractions, etc etc as well as well as an excellent counter sabotage / operational resilience package thrown in.

expect yours to be the first name on the list this year then? :)
 

252_me

Old-Salt
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
we have a duty to ensure they have enough time for phys / sport / recreation. but likewise, soldiers are not dumb. they know if its a busy period, work must come first. in my experience, they are happy with this AS LONG AS they are allowed time off for the fun things when it IS possible. occasionally you get a leader who is reluctant to let the guys knock off to do sport even though there no urgent / important work on, for fear of "how it looks". but i stress this has been a tiny minority in my experience.

it's all about looking after the soldiers, and demonstrating it - not just talking about it. there is far less resentment at pulling last-minute weekend exercises etc if the guys know you will get them a day off in lieu. if they've been working their arses off all week and heads are down, a surprise lunchtime knock-off can do wonders for morale.

look after the guys & gals and they will be happy. show that you care and make every effort to make their lives better, and they will appreciate it - even if not every plan comes off, or things fall through, or fastball jobs come in which scupper your plans.

252, it seems you're not happy and i feel for your predicament. but i honestly don't believe it is representative of a battalion, let alone the corps as a whole.

Maybe my postings have been unlucky, but I'm not purely talking about my own experiences here, or just about phys. I'm all for knocking off at lunchtime and going on the lash (when work permits) and I have had one posting (in Germany) where, within reason, this was possible. Usually though this is the exception rather than the rule, the Army appears to me to be changing to more like civvy street where you are chained to the desk no matter what.

I'm perfectly happy, I never do phys in my own time(1500 every afternoon - if I feel like it), I knock off at 12:30 on a Friday and if I was any good at sport my Wednesday afternoons would be spent playing it. That said, last week I was in the office until 1900hrs Mon-Thu and didn't get away until 1400 on Fri. This though was the combination of a peculiar week and my own piss poor time management! I have though been in places where this wasn't the case and getting away at 1600 on a Fri was considered an early finish!
 

Green_Goblin

War Hero
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
Scorptin said:
CR I Thank you! I know your Section has lots of spare time on their hands, as when I call there is no-one ever there!

that's only because i gave you the padre's number instead of mine :)

(and we're very busy, thank you kindly. and getting busier in the future with the likely formation of a rather large phase 2 and phase 3 defence training academy on our patch! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6268427.stm )
Yeah, but you would have long gone by then so why worry!
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
Scorptin said:
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
Scorptin said:
CR I Thank you! I know your Section has lots of spare time on their hands, as when I call there is no-one ever there!

that's only because i gave you the padre's number instead of mine :)

(and we're very busy, thank you kindly. and getting busier in the future with the likely formation of a rather large phase 2 and phase 3 defence training academy on our patch! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6268427.stm )
Yeah, but you would have long gone by then so why worry!

i'll still be a staffy tho :)

up and running by 2013, work begins as soon as they get the contract awarded (also bearing in mind we have units there already...)
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
okay, so after 3 weeks it appears the Op Ints have it by a long way.



either that or some of the darksiders haven't figured out how to click and vote :)
 

Green_Goblin

War Hero
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
okay, so after 3 weeks it appears the Op Ints have it by a long way.



either that or some of the darksiders haven't figured out how to click and vote :)

That's only because there are alot of old OP INT & Sy farts on here. Give it 10 years and OPMI will have it!

For the OPMI(L), I have checked this post for grammar and spelling!
 

evilgenius

Old-Salt
There seems to me to be a bit of a growing problem with some (notice the use of some - that means not all :yawnstretch: ) juniors who get a mega-sad-on (sounds a bit like a dinosuar ) beacuse they have been told they have to work on a friday afternoon.

Like alot of people, i am all for people getting away early if there is nothing to be done, but a lot of people are seeming to forget that we get paid all year round no matter what we are doing be it leave, off sick, or having a jolly in another country.

Theoretically our bosses could make us work a lot longer than we already do.
 

Green_Goblin

War Hero
You are indeed correct Evilgenius. I am with on this one. If there is no work that needs doing why sit around, cut away and have some fun!

However, I have noticed that this is becoming a common trait amongst JNCOs, they have a totally different attitude to what I and others here had when we were at that level. I had to ask my Sgt Maj if I could leave every night, now they wander out the door as if it is their right to leave bang on 1700, irrespective of work commitments.

We trust them to manage their time and work load, and we must treat them as adults, but as soon as things start to get missed and deadlines not being met is the time to reach for that AGAI book! I'm sure they will learn pretty swiftly!
 

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