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What systemic issues would you change in the MOD or in the single Services?

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Dress codes are the third rail of discussion on this site. ;)

Everyone wants to be speshul, it seems. Will they do away with berets and saluting next? First name terms with the CO?
 
If it's so wrong for orders to be subject to local interpretation, then can you give us a clear answer to the question about Army personnel in 3 Cdo Brigade?

I'm not convinced we should blindly follow orders if they're obviously not suited for local conditions. I'm sure someone on here has said before that the key to mission command is knowing when not to obey an order. ;)

Another member of the site has answered that quesion.
 
Another member of the site has answered that quesion.

It hasn't, and nor has my question about t-shirts.

The reason they haven't is because the standard "LOL, the stupid army couldn't even enforce sleeves up/sleeves down" point is obviously silly the moment you think about it for more than two seconds. Rigid enforcement of the rules means that Army pax in 3X would end up dressed differently to their RM counterparts, in some cases when they're working in the same section or department. In an organization that prides itself on cohesion, that's a barrier being set up when we could avoid it entirely simply letting soldiers roll their sleeves up. That's before we discuss soldiers working at RAF establishments, with partner nations, or on mixed courses in the UK.

The argument for t-shirts is slightly different, but is another example of where blindly taking an 'orders is orders" approach is obvious nonsense. The rules say I shouldn't let my blokes take their PCS shirts off even when it's extremely hot, but basic common sense says I should let them strip down to be more comfortable.

'Orders should always be obeyed' is, and always has been, a terrible idea.
 
Why? He has some interesting views, but left the army 30 years ago...
He left the army in 2003, whichis somewhat less than 3 decades, by his own arithmetic, at any rate.

Yours appears to be either dodgy, or ill informed :thumleft:

Edited to add: given that the Army officer community's underlying assumptions and values are - going by the works of such as the late Professor Richard Holmes compared to the reported behaviours of (the likes of) Sarnies Cowan, little altered since we were firmly ensconced in an Empire that was in its death throes e'en when I was in nappies - 30 years is but the blinking of an eye, where such things are concerned.

And these things matter, hugely, since they absolutely determine the capacity of any organisation to recognise the need to change, and its ability to bring it about.

Brit Army hasn't yet adjusted to end of Empire, or to post-WW2 (never mind post-Cold War) circumstances.
 
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It hasn't, and nor has my question about t-shirts.

The reason they haven't is because the standard "LOL, the stupid army couldn't even enforce sleeves up/sleeves down" point is obviously silly the moment you think about it for more than two seconds. Rigid enforcement of the rules means that Army pax in 3X would end up dressed differently to their RM counterparts, in some cases when they're working in the same section or department. In an organization that prides itself on cohesion, that's a barrier being set up when we could avoid it entirely simply letting soldiers roll their sleeves up. That's before we discuss soldiers working at RAF establishments, with partner nations, or on mixed courses in the UK.

The argument for t-shirts is slightly different, but is another example of where blindly taking an 'orders is orders" approach is obvious nonsense. The rules say I shouldn't let my blokes take their PCS shirts off even when it's extremely hot, but basic common sense says I should let them strip down to be more comfortable.

'Orders should always be obeyed' is, and always has been, a terrible idea.

PCS was designed to be worn in a specific manner, mainly for the comfort of the wearer. The retarded dinosaurs who insisted on chinning off one of the senior officers in the British Army made their men wear the PCS lightweight jacket in the most uncomfortable way possible and then managed to get the Army to waste money on MTP Barrack shirts . Not a shining example of mission command

T-Shirt order is a recognised dress code for wear in the required cicircumstances.

Any group of officers from different units together & not in the field manage to look slightly different from each other with their array of stable belts, head dress, jumpers and other random items . Does that affect their cohesion?
 
PCS was designed to be worn in a specific manner, mainly for the comfort of the wearer.

Not true. It was designed to be worn in or out as wanted, which is why the jacket is such a bad shape. CGS directed it to be worn out with the sleeves down then 3 Cdo got an exemption to that order almost immediately. Once they had one, others wanted one as well.

T-Shirt order is a recognised dress code for wear in the required cicircumstances

Also not true, unless it's changed in a very recent edition of the dress regs. I've checked regs on this point previously. The only variation in No 8 Dress (Combat Dress) is that the green Jersey Heavy Wool can be worn in place of T Shirts.

. Does that affect their cohesion?

Yes. That's almost the point of doing it; it highlights their tribal differences and thereby heightens the sense of cohesion with your 'tribe'. That's quite different to numerous forms of dress being worn in the same semi-elite unit/brigade when the manner of the uniform being worn is a tradition (albeit a relatively recent one).


The army has a lot of issues. CGS spending his time digging into the minutiae of dress standards while not trusting junior commanders to make simple decisions really isn't one of them.
 
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Not true. It was designed to be worn in or out as wanted, which is why the jacket is such a bad shape. CGS directed it to be worn out with the sleeves down then 3 Cdo got an exemption to that order almost immediately. Once they had one, others wanted one as well.



Also not true, unless it's changed in a very recent edition of the dress regs. I've checked regs on this point previously. The only variation in No 8 Dress (Combat Dress) is that the green Jersey Heavy Wool can be worn in place of T Shirts.



Yes. That's almost the point of doing it; it highlights their tribal differences and thereby heightens the sense of cohesion with your 'tribe'. That's quite different to numerous forms of dress being worn in the same semi-elite unit/brigade when the manner of the uniform being worn is a tradition (albeit a relatively recent one).
I’m throwing thoughts into the debate here, not my opinions.

Is there any evidence that strict uniformity contributes to cohesion? Or is it hangover from the days of forming squares ?

The rest of the uniformed world (police, nurses, ambulance etc) has moved on from strict uniformity of uniform to a much more pragmatic approach. People where whatever part of their uniform that is necessary for the job and they make that decision themselves. Should the Army be similarly pragmatic and trust it’s soldiers to select the right component of their issued work clothes for the job?

Does ordering sleeves up / sleeves down etc etc stifle initiative at its lowest level, thereby creating an environment in which people don’t take the initiative?

Who cares if one man has his sleeves up and the next down?
 
I’m throwing thoughts into the debate here, not my opinions.

Is there any evidence that strict uniformity contributes to cohesion? Or is it hangover from the days of forming squares ?

The rest of the uniformed world (police, nurses, ambulance etc) has moved on from strict uniformity of uniform to a much more pragmatic approach. People where whatever part of their uniform that is necessary for the job and they make that decision themselves. Should the Army be similarly pragmatic and trust it’s soldiers to select the right component of their issued work clothes for the job?

Does ordering sleeves up / sleeves down etc etc stifle initiative at its lowest level, thereby creating an environment in which people don’t take the initiative?

Who cares if one man has his sleeves up and the next down?

The kind of people who think smartness is an aim rather than a side effect.
 
...
The army has a lot of issues. CGS spending his time digging into the minutiae of dress standards while not trusting junior commanders to make simple decisions really isn't one of them.
That in and of itself might not be an issue, but it's an indication that there are other, more troubling issues.
 
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