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What now for the EU ?

You agree with me then, that Britain never had the fantasy high reputation you now think is trashed, excellent.

Your latent racism is never far from the surface, with those comments about South Africa being only good for trading in shields, spears and beads being one of the most disgusting.
We had a very good reputation for diplomacy post WW2. HTH
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
Ah yes our old talent for diplomacy, pragmatism and appeasement. Look it up it was a valuable tool in the diplomacy kit especially in India and other empirey bits.


As for wetting my pants, not at all. It couldn’t be more simple. Brexit, I’ve always thought a stupid idea and have said so.

No one has provided an example of how it will improve our or anyone’s lot.


Even a capable government wouldn’t have attempted it.

And this is nothing resembling a capable government.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. The problem is we’ve the wrong man in the wrong hour.
Tell us skidmark, will you be wanting to rejoin with all the necessary preconditions of joining the EU, bearing in mind they are certainly not going to give us the last deal we had?
 

WightMivvi

Old-Salt
Did you mean Sir Stuart Rose? Sir Stuart was the Chair of Britain Stronger in Europe.

Sir Michael is a retired general officer and his name was wrongly included in a letter supporting EU membership. In fact he was on the record as making some Eurosceptic remars regarding security: General Sir Michael Rose: EU is 'eroding our sovereignty,' says former SAS commander
Apologies - yes, I meant Sir Stuart Rose, the ex-head of Marks and Sparks.

I in no way meant to smear Sir Michael Rose who, let’s face it, could be rather scary in the wrong circumstances.o_O
 

Oyibo

LE
By what method of skullduggery does Barnier come to this conclusion ?

Presumably by saying in the future that the EU was acting in good faith (despite requiring the UK to be subjugated to conditions that no other non-EU member state is subject to).
 
The message I brought from that clip is that Europe is what it wants to be. The commisson for Juncker is a power broker, the fact that he attended conferences at the drop of a hat as a senior civil servant- not necessarily with the sanction of, or the constrains of the council says a lot. The telling point is the ego. He does not feel constrained because no one did so. The Ire with which he confronted VDL in respect of defence- which must surely take a back seat in European terms because of the rescue packages is telling. All America has demanded ha s been that all Nato Members must put up their 2%. The whole of the last 5 years has been his ego trip- not Europe.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
As originally constructed, the EU was designed to prevent future war in Europe by binding France and Germany together under French political leadership. As the Economic Miracle developed, Germany was given more economic power, since it was seen that what was good for Germany was good for Europe (to misquote Catch-22's Milo Minderbender). Britain's membership was always on the basis that we had a tertiary role on the political and economic running of the EU in return for the opt-outs that enabled our system to thrive. Again, this was on the basis that what was good for the UK was good for the EU.

Had this balance remained, I'd wholeheartedly agree we should have stayed.

I'm curerently reading David Goodhart's The Road to Somewhere: The New Tribes Shaping British Politics and your comment chimed with certain passages that he wrote about the old established EEC order:

Britain, albeit as a somewhat semi-detached member, was reasonably comfortable with the EU of the late 1980s and the early 1990s. The liberal nation state had been restored to health across Europe and the high degree of ecomonic co-operation, with some political co-operation, was largely undertaken within an inter-governmental framewok that gave countries many veto options. Moreover, Britain increasingly established a special relationship role in financial servioces just as the Germans did in the motor industry or the French in agriculture.
...
A divergence of some kind between Britain and the rest, or most of the rest, was perhaps inevitable but in retrospect it is a shame that London did not put more strategic effort into creating and leading an 'outer ring' of countries with no interest in a single currency or a shared fiscal pace but a a continuing attachment to a single market (without full freedom of movement) and to cooperation on foreign and security policy. (The only politician of note who has consistenly argued along these lines is David Owen).


Personally, I am not sure that the UK could have established such an outer ring and that the momentum for full integration is just overwhelming. I think the post Cold War hubris of the early 1990s started that momentum and this was perhaps the last moment when such a proposal could have been aired, preciselty when the UK was at its zenith within the EEC/EU.
 

ericferret

War Hero
1603276266621.png


Too P.C for my liking.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
Good, I think the fact our "upper house" is full of unelected cronies is a national disgrace. HOL should be disbanded in it's entirety.

It worked well as a reforming chamber until the cnut Blair changed it. Yes, it was full of hereditary peers, but many were experienced non-executive directors who brought real understanding to the table. As did the peers who sat on the boards of charities etc.

A perfectly good institution screwed up by the grinning spiv.

Wordsmith
 
It worked well as a reforming chamber until the cnut Blair changed it. Yes, it was full of hereditary peers, but many were experienced non-executive directors who brought real understanding to the table. As did the peers who sat on the boards of charities etc.

A perfectly good institution screwed up by the grinning spiv.

Wordsmith
Ah Tony's cronies, is there anything that man touched that wasn't left with a putrid stench around it? And yes, I include Cherie's nether regions in that.
 
I think it's time to post this again.
Whilst some on here are convinced one way or the other, it's all done and dusted, I am not (by that I mean we are leaving, but on what terms).
PMBJ needs to stand firm on his promises and not let the EU fudge a deal at the last minute that will not benefit the UK. I am particularly concerned there will be a deal on fishing that doesn't protect UK waters, which will not please the fishermen of the NE of Scotland and will further Sturgeon's cause.
I know many on here are scornful of Brotheton Lad's "wait and see" angle, but I will not be convinced until the clock strikes midnight on December 31st and ends our membership of the EU once and for all.
I have made no secret on here that I voted remain, but as the years have gone on and the farce that has been the Brexit debate has unravelled, I have been more and more convinced I was wrong. That said we have to pull together and make Brexit work. Even the most ardent remainer must now realise that we are leaving. All of us now need to make it work to Britains advantage as best we can and IMHO that means standing firm and not letting the EU make a half-arsed deal.

edited to add a link that works.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
I think it's time to post this again.
Whilst some on here are convinced one way or the other, it's all done and dusted, I am not (by that I mean we are leaving, but on what terms).
PMBJ needs to stand firm on his promises and not let the EU fudge a deal at the last minute that will not benefit the UK. I am particularly concerned there will be a deal on fishing that doesn't protect UK waters, which will not please the fishermen of the NE of Scotland and will further Sturgeon's cause.
I know many on here are scornful of Brotheton Lad's "wait and see" angle, but I will not be convinced until the clock strikes midnight on December 31st and ends our membership of the EU once and for all.
I have made no secret on here that I voted remain, but as the years have gone on and the farce that has been the Brexit debate has unravelled, I have been more and more convinced I was wrong. That said we have to pull together and make Brexit work. Even the most ardent remainer must now realise that we are leaving. All of us now need to make it work to Britains advantage as best we can and IMHO that means standing firm and not letting the EU make a half-arsed deal.

Well, the 'Walk away and go to WTO rules' fantasy appears not to be on the cards at the moment. So, it's likely to be a fudge. The Big Boris Brexit Betrayal inbound.
 
I think it's time to post this again.
Whilst some on here are convinced one way or the other, it's all done and dusted, I am not (by that I mean we are leaving, but on what terms).
PMBJ needs to stand firm on his promises and not let the EU fudge a deal at the last minute that will not benefit the UK. I am particularly concerned there will be a deal on fishing that doesn't protect UK waters, which will not please the fishermen of the NE of Scotland and will further Sturgeon's cause.
I know many on here are scornful of Brotheton Lad's "wait and see" angle, but I will not be convinced until the clock strikes midnight on December 31st and ends our membership of the EU once and for all.
I have made no secret on here that I voted remain, but as the years have gone on and the farce that has been the Brexit debate has unravelled, I have been more and more convinced I was wrong. That said we have to pull together and make Brexit work. Even the most ardent remainer must now realise that we are leaving. All of us now need to make it work to Britains advantage as best we can and IMHO that means standing firm and not letting the EU make a half-arsed deal.

remainers would smash a hole in the bottom of the lifeboat just to prove they were right the ships sinking
 
Well, the 'Walk away and go to WTO rules' fantasy appears not to be on the cards at the moment. So, it's likely to be a fudge. The Big Boris Brexit Betrayal inbound.

Wait and see
 

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