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What now for the EU ?

WightMivvi

Old-Salt
My eyes are fine, I think that brexiteers were doom mongers. The leave camp was fuelled by irrational fear, hatred and of course lies. No point in digging up a corpse but 'project fear' was just another silly phrase that ignored warnings that are as accurate now as they were then. History informs that overwhelming propaganda on social media engineered by our enemies was successful in influencing the ignorant masses.

I invite you to answer your own questions. You may discover that cognitive bias remains the only enemy now.

Have you noticed that after several investigations by pro-Remain authorities, no one has been able to prove that the leave campaign did “irrational fear, hatred and of course lies”? Maybe that’s another example of where Remain and Remainers failed.

For me, ”Leave” was about hope, confidence and friendliness. We can stand on our own feet, we can try for something better, we can embrace the world.

But you also highlight yet another destructive Remain behaviour: a belief that Leavers are ignorant mindless gullible drones who swallow whatever bullplop is placed in front of them.

What makes you think Leavers lacked the ability to analyse conflicting range of opinions, spin and expert views, and draw their own conclusions? The fact that they came to a different conclusion for you doesn’t make them ignorant.

Maybe you (and other Remainers) failed because you lacked access to the entirety of their data (e.g. life experience). Maybe you (and other Remainers) failed because you failed to get your data into their calculations?
 
Have you noticed that after several investigations by pro-Remain authorities, no one has been able to prove that the leave campaign did “irrational fear, hatred and of course lies”? Maybe that’s another example of where Remain and Remainers failed.

For me, ”Leave” was about hope, confidence and friendliness. We can stand on our own feet, we can try for something better, we can embrace the world.

But you also highlight yet another destructive Remain behaviour: a belief that Leavers are ignorant mindless gullible drones who swallow whatever bullplop is placed in front of them.

What makes you think Leavers lacked the ability to analyse conflicting range of opinions, spin and expert views, and draw their own conclusions? The fact that they came to a different conclusion for you doesn’t make them ignorant.

Maybe you (and other Remainers) failed because you lacked access to the entirety of their data (e.g. life experience). Maybe you (and other Remainers) failed because you failed to get your data into their calculations?

Remainers failed because all they had to offer was fears, lies and doubt, and were so consumed by being anti British they began to believe their own lies
 

Boris Johnson blames EU for end of talks, as Lords hand government heaviest defeat for 20 years...​


Our safety mechanism is kicking in. The 'oven ready' lie spitting turkey has caused enough damage. Time for another basting.

the House of soon to be ex Lords cutting its own throat
 
Yep - the government will send the bill back with token revisions, the lords will reject it again and it'll pass the commons for a third time before becoming law.

I'd say the Lords has also guaranteed itself a reduction in size from 800 peers to 300. The weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth will be awesome.

Wordsmith
Good, I think the fact our "upper house" is full of unelected cronies is a national disgrace. HOL should be disbanded in it's entirety.
 

WightMivvi

Old-Salt
Remainers failed because all they had to offer was fears, lies and doubt, and were so consumed by being anti British they began to believe their own lies
That and more. There was also a mind-blowing level of incompetence and ignorance and a focus on talking to themselves.

The classic example was Sir Michael Rose, head of the Remain campaign, who told everyone (right at the start of the campaign) that if we left the EU, our wages would go up.

That, apparently, was a bad thing.

The exact same thinking is at the top levels of the EU.
 
Unbelievable. Bombardier Transportation, the German subsidiary of the Canadian Bombardier Inc, has secured a new contract worth £248m to maintain, overhaul and service Arriva CrossCountry vehicles. And they have the temerity to announce they're going to do it from sites in Staffordshire and Crewe. Dirty Boxheads creating their dirty engineering jobs here in the UK. Shouldn't be allowed, the sooner we pull up that drawbridge the better.
 

Humperdoo

Clanker
You like the majority here have never studied the foundations and standing declarations of the EU. If you need to ask where to find them the chances are that you do not have sufficient ability to understand them anyway.
Nice pretentious answer there, so basically you are talking bollox. Well done for proving my point on a previous post I made. You are clearly a europhile (fair enough) so list these principles you speak of and lets debate them, I would suggest it is vital if the EU is to survive.
 
On this Trafalgar Day, best to remind ourselves of the French character

They are thieves, murderers, oppressors and infidels, therefore what faith can we hold with these people.”
Admiral Lord Nelson
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
When did we ever have a good reputation?

Before, during or after days of Empire?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, India and Pakistan have all loved our interference.
Dividing countries and redrawing borders

Well, we got Afg and Iraq so right we keep going back and stuffing it up again for good measure.

But don't let that stop you from wetting your pants. Again.
Ah yes our old talent for diplomacy, pragmatism and appeasement. Look it up it was a valuable tool in the diplomacy kit especially in India and other empirey bits.


As for wetting my pants, not at all. It couldn’t be more simple. Brexit, I’ve always thought a stupid idea and have said so.

No one has provided an example of how it will improve our or anyone’s lot.


Even a capable government wouldn’t have attempted it.

And this is nothing resembling a capable government.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. The problem is we’ve the wrong man in the wrong hour.
 

rifleair

War Hero

Boris Johnson blames EU for end of talks, as Lords hand government heaviest defeat for 20 years...​


Our safety mechanism is kicking in. The 'oven ready' lie spitting turkey has caused enough damage. Time for another basting.
If that is what you truly believe then you really are thick and have absolutely no idea of how this country works.
 
Whilst I agree with your point about social media, the rest of your post is an opinion and not a statement of fact. The rest of the (belligerent) remain side should now be helping to take the UK forward and supporting the UK outside of the EU. You have to accept the referendum result, (losers consent) the EU is now a rival with it's own problems. We can have reciprocal trade/treaties etc with the EU if it's within our national interest, however we must always remain sovereign.
If that is what you truly believe then you really are thick and have absolutely no idea of how this country works.
Isnt he a Canuck?
 

WightMivvi

Old-Salt
Yes and the reason ‘the sun never set on the British Empire was even God didn’t trust the Englishman in the dark’
Can I just say that as someone of predominantly non-English descent, I find that statement quite racist.

On the plus side, it kinda explodes the myth that racism was a Leave problem...
 

Mmm thought provoking, I'll just leave this here

Indeed. I'd argue that at it's core, this is a Franco-German Civil War. BREXIT is in fact the first major casualty (for the EU) of that war.

As originally constructed, the EU was designed to prevent future war in Europe by binding France and Germany together under French political leadership. As the Economic Miracle developed, Germany was given more economic power, since it was seen that what was good for Germany was good for Europe (to misquote Catch-22's Milo Minderbender). Britain's membership was always on the understanding that we had a tertiary role in the political and economic running of the EU in return for the opt-outs that enabled our system to thrive. Again, this was on the basis that what was good for the UK was good for the EU.

Had this balance remained, I'd wholeheartedly agree we should have stayed. Bit by bit, our growing power as a Global hub would have increased our influence steadily until we would probably, mid-century, have been the most powerful economic player in the EU. But it didn't. Too many ambitious politicians decided that change had to come in their political lifetimes and started tinkering. Maastricht and the birth of a blatant USE agenda; Blair's attempts to get premature UK political elevation; Germany's gaming of the Euro to pay for re-unification and Merkel's naive handling of the freedom of movement issue all had their part to play.

Gradually, this started to poison the European ideal and no one recognised this more than France (and the Francophone EU Commission), but they had less and less ability to to control Germany (aided and abetted by the Frugal Four), eventually losing control of the commission itself. Germany also broke the understanding with UK (an erstwhile close EU Ally) by insisting that British opt-outs had to stop, despite having gamed the system almost to death themselves. Had Britain stayed aloof, all may in time have righted itself in our favour (the BL argument), but we did not. To his credit, this is something that Blair, despite his earlier political snubbing by the EU, recognised very clearly.

Having committed to a referendum and had Remain won, Britain would then effectively have had to sign up to the poisoned chalice that the EU had become, simply because we had chosen. In this situation, we would have had to pay steadily more to bankroll a direction of travel we did not really want to go in. There is an argument (BL and others) that this would not necessarily have been the case, but it is hard to see how UK could have reasserted itself in the medium term.

And of course, as night follows day, an evident result of BREXIT in the EU is France and Germany steadily heading towards each other's throats, now that UK is no longer a balancing factor. Sadly for the original EU ideals, I think Europe is probably now more vulnerable to conflict than at any time since 1945.
 
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@Higgs_bosun justifies my decision to put him on ignore with every post he makes. He spouts opinion as fact and lies through his arrse repeatedly. The man is a worthless cünt who brings exactly nothing to anything.
The only surprise - being the tolerant kind of fellow you are - is that it took you so long, to reach the same conclusion as the rest of us !! ;) .
 
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@Higgs_bosun justifies my decision to put him on ignore with every post he makes. He spouts opinion as fact and lies through his arrse repeatedly. The man is a worthless cünt who brings exactly nothing to anything.
You could always check the post before yours for people spouting opinion as fact.
 
Yes and the reason ‘the sun never set on the British Empire was even God didn’t trust the Englishman in the dark’

You agree with me then, that Britain never had the fantasy high reputation you now think is trashed, excellent.

Your latent racism is never far from the surface, with those comments about South Africa being only good for trading in shields, spears and beads being one of the most disgusting.
 

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