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What now for the EU ?

I thought, excepting the wibblers and the deranged, that pretty much everyone had agreed about the future of the EU?

It's screwed.
It's debt is out of control, Putin has driven a knife into its belly with Hungary and Bulgaria loyal to Russia, and Putin can destroy Germany overnight by turning off a couple of gas taps. France (unless there is a miracle) is facing the choice of either civil war/pogroms against the 5 million Muslims living in metropolitan France, or converting to Islam (having utterly failed to integrate Muslims and other migrants into their society). Sweden, having chosen the route of appeasement to Islam is in even deeper poo. Spain, Greece, Portugal and a few others are just a few government bond issues from a catastrophic banking failure that would also bring down the French, German and Italian banking systems.

In comparison to the corruption, racial divides (and attendant racism) and incompetence in European countries, Britain appears a model of good governance and propriety; a veritable land of milk and honey.
Cheers Vlad.
 

Humperdoo

Clanker
There is strength in numbers and a system based upon sound principles should work. Time will tell. My firm belief in that such a dynamic organisation with built in healing ability will thrive.
I would agree if it was a federal system like the US. Unfortunately for the EU, I can't see it surviving long enough for that to happen.
 
I'm afraid our reputation is well and truly stuffed. Blame will be apportioned, the usual subjects will be rounded up.

in tbe Middle Ages, England was called ‘Perfidious Albion’.....
.....and not because we were paragons Of virtue and probity,
 

Humperdoo

Clanker
Your are right except that in years gone by social media was not a huge vehicle for misinformation as it is now. It is now possible for more people to evaluate policies, promises and the bullsh-t. Admitting defeat by a bunch of fools is not dignified at all especially as the only winners are those who are proved to be correct. So far the utter shambles of brexit, a predicted future of chaos and hardship look set to make remainers the only winners.
Whilst I agree with your point about social media, the rest of your post is an opinion and not a statement of fact. The rest of the (belligerent) remain side should now be helping to take the UK forward and supporting the UK outside of the EU. You have to accept the referendum result, (losers consent) the EU is now a rival with it's own problems. We can have reciprocal trade/treaties etc with the EU if it's within our national interest, however we must always remain sovereign.
 

Humperdoo

Clanker
My assertion (your bold) is that the EU organisation has a system based upon sound principles. I don't see how some virus induced problems in certain sectors changes anything. European Union finance ministers broadly agree on an idea that governments grappling for funds might apply for a credit line worth some 2% of their GDP from a joint bailout fund called the European Stabilisation Mechanism (ESM).
I doubt that's anywhere near enough and what are these principles you speak of?
 

Humperdoo

Clanker
Hmm. As a Leaver, I never encountered any “flag-waving isolationists”, paranoid or not. But I did hear a lot about these mythical creatures from baffled Remainers who lacked the ability to comprehend that different people had different life experiences that lead them to different conclusions.

In many respects, the EU is going through the growing pains that the federal authorities in the US went through a few hundred years ago. Like the US federal authorities, the Commission seeks to expand its powers beyond those granted to them by the member states and, once it gets those powers, it never lets go. This isn’t paranoia, merely a recognition of federal realpolitik.

I do laugh at your assertion that the EU is a meritocracy. The EU has traditionally been a place where failed politicians are put out to grass, and where personal contacts and positioning gives you power, not merit. The European Parliament and Commission are, to borrow your phraseology, a menagerie of the failed, of the corrupt, of the incompetent.

As for your claim that the EU is democratic, well, let’s agree to disagree. The EU is designed to ensure consistency and continuity, mitigating the disruption, uncertainty and change that follow national elections. Governments may change but the EU and its policies will continue.

I do sort of agree that the money we invested in, say, new roads in Poland gave us some benefit; the lorries carrying our goods could get to the Polish consumer quicker as a result of those new roads, reducing the logistical cost a little. However, I don’t believe those benefits were equal to or greater than our contributions, and I think they are not worth the loss of democratic control over those who exercise power over us.

What I find particularly interesting though is that you are exhibiting an odd behaviour that
the most vocal Remainers all exhibit: an obsession with wealth and status. The British (well, actually the English) are already the most hated people in the world but we seem to do ok, so I won’t worry too much about reputation. As for the loss of wealth, I wonder if you could help me in finding an answer to the folllowing question:

If I say I will give you £10 tomorrow but then only give you £5 tomorrow, are you richer or poorer?
Unfortunately for the West, we have been so bereft of leadership and competence for several decades now, that too many of the arguments/debates are based on the "strawman" principle. Problems are no longer being resolved and people feel disenfranchised with their voices being ignored. It's probably the main reason I voted to leave, it really is time to hold our politicians/leaders to account.
 
To put it mildly, I think you're wearing rose tinted glasses. If the EU is that wonderful, why didn't the Remain camp campaign on that basis, rather than relying on project fear?

The last major EU treaty was Lisbon in 2007, 13 years ago. If the EU is a utopian as you suggest, why weren't there demands for another treaty, so the EU could have even more powers?

Wordsmith
My eyes are fine, I think that brexiteers were doom mongers. The leave camp was fuelled by irrational fear, hatred and of course lies. No point in digging up a corpse but 'project fear' was just another silly phrase that ignored warnings that are as accurate now as they were then. History informs that overwhelming propaganda on social media engineered by our enemies was successful in influencing the ignorant masses.

I invite you to answer your own questions. You may discover that cognitive bias remains the only enemy now.
 
I doubt that's anywhere near enough and what are these principles you speak of?
You like the majority here have never studied the foundations and standing declarations of the EU. If you need to ask where to find them the chances are that you do not have sufficient ability to understand them anyway.
 

Boris Johnson blames EU for end of talks, as Lords hand government heaviest defeat for 20 years...​


Our safety mechanism is kicking in. The 'oven ready' lie spitting turkey has caused enough damage. Time for another basting.
 

UKRaider

War Hero
Another quote for you:
"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens.
If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided,
we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

Yep. Jean Claude again...
 
Britain should make the most of the little time left to get a trade deal, Michel Barnier warned as he refused to meet the government’s condition for restarting talks.

After a brief call with Lord Frost, the chief British negotiator, Mr Barnier failed to indicate “acceptance that movement needs to come from the EU side as well as the UK”, a requirement set by Downing Street on Monday.


The EU do not need to move from their red lines. They will only accept total capitulation of the UK.

You will accept:

1. Our ECJ

2. Our version of a level playing field

3. Our demands on your fishing waters.

A moment of reflection on why......

1. The Mercosur deal is going nowhere

2. CETA has not been ratified

3. Switzerland are blowing them bubbles.

...... Is something that is way beyond them.

F**k them off at the High Port, sit back and let the EU deal with the fallout, most notably in Ireland, France and Germany.
 
You like the majority here have never studied the foundations and standing declarations of the EU. If you need to ask where to find them the chances are that you do not have sufficient ability to understand them anyway.
Talking out of your arrse again then.

If you can understand them, anyone can.

Put up or shut up. You've had nothing to say for the last four years and you've been vocal with it.

Whilst your thinking, what are these self healing qualities of the EU?

There's only one reason barny has number ten on speed dial 2 at the moment. And it's not so that the EU can save Britain.
 
in tbe Middle Ages, England was called ‘Perfidious Albion’.....
.....and not because we were paragons Of virtue and probity,
As @Truxx (I think it was) mentioned upthread, we didn't manage to acquire and then maintain an empire over a period of three hundred years just by being nice!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

crow_bag

War Hero

Boris Johnson blames EU for end of talks, as Lords hand government heaviest defeat for 20 years...​


Our safety mechanism is kicking in. The 'oven ready' lie spitting turkey has caused enough damage. Time for another basting.

The Lord's can only delay not stop.

They vote it down, it goes back to parliament who vote a second time, it the goes to The Lords who vote it down again, parliament then vote a third time and it becomes law anyway.

The numbers are very much in Boris' favour in this regard.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 
As @Truxx (I think it was) mentioned upthread, we didn't manage to acquire and then maintain an empire over a period of three hundred years just by being nice!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Or by belonging to the EU
 

Truxx

LE
The Lord's can only delay not stop.

They vote it down, it goes back to parliament who vote a second time, it the goes to The Lords who vote it down again, parliament then vote a third time and it becomes law anyway.

The numbers are very much in Boris' favour in this regard.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
That headline should have read " Lords continue to write their own epitaph"
 

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